Occidentalism

Well, I’ll give the writer credit for the absence of profanity. But the writer can’t cite any evidence of hate/racism. I guess it’s all about those feelings rather than those facts that are too cold.

Maybe it was the kites?

Didnt Coreans invent writing letters? LOL

I see no justification for calling this site a ‘hate-site’.

I’ve been around the world, and lived in many different nations/cities etc. I’ve never, ever been to a country as racist and xenophobic as korea. And for a Korean to call this site, which blasts apart the stupid things that koreans believe, racist is the height of projection. “Dokdo” is a lie. Korean victim mythology is a lie. The “miracle of the han” was nothing more than favored access to the American consumer market. Every story that Koreans tell themselves about themselves is a lie. Add to this their cultural chauvinism, where they arrogantly believe that everything under the sun came from them, and we have a people would had better get used to being criticized for holding crazy beliefs.

Koreans, you had better get used to more criticism. With increased globalization will come increased interaction with korean ideas and non-korean ideas. And the korean-ideas are ridiculous and bound to get stepped on, laughed at and shattered.

Lastly, if I may rant. A few days ago some korean started talking to me in Malaysia. I took 1 minute before his garbage started. Stop spitting in other countries. Stop littering when on vacation. And nobody cares if you have 4-seasons. Do you understand that? Stop going around the world talking about how you have seasonal change. Who cares? Why in hell do you focus on this? Also, we don’t care about kimchi and how you think it cures every disease under the sun. It smells bad and tastes worse. And you are all going to die of cancer because of it. Kimchi causes cancer!

That should be

“It took 1 minute”

That e-mail expresses one characteristic of Korean ‘unrealists’. They only accuse someone to be RACIST, RACIST, RACIST repeatedly. BUT they never point out which entry contains the racist message, where corrensponds toward the racist remark and why it corrensponds to be racist.

Another aspect, they really love Nazi.

I am getting sick and tired of the complaint from Korean people to the effect that this is the hate site because this site criticizes some aspects of
Korea.

For instance the newest post is about Dokdo. It points out the fact that Korean historian does not present the historical fact accurately and he is deceiving Korean people , and ultimately the post claims that Dokdo does not belong to Korea. But no Korean people point it out.

Does that make this site an hate site?

That might make this blog an hate site in Korea , since Korea is an society where a person who express an opinion different from Koreans will be ostracized.. But that is the one of the problem this blog has been pointing out.

Korean people should join and discuss the issue together.

If they disagree, that is fine. we can deepen understanding.
If they agree that Korea society has a problem the author points out, they should speak out, then people will think,”Hey, Korean people also think as we do, then we don’t have to point out the mistakes they are making, maybe we can leave the issue to them.”

Recently, this-is-a-hate-site complaint is increasing. Does that mean Vank and Killzap have decided to silence this site because the site is telling the
truth about Korea, the taboo, which no Korean dare to speak about? If that is the case, they should know that it make Korea look really bad.

Does anonymous care to debate this by leaving a comment?

We’ve been through this before with “claire”. If Occidentalism.org is a hate site it would have been closed down long ago by the Human Rights and Equal Opportunity Commission.

Quoting again the burden of proof:

The complainant is responsible for proving that the act was done in public, that it was done because of his or her ethnicity and that it was reasonably likely to offend, insult, humiliate or intimidate a reasonable person of that ethnicity.

There is no doubt that everyone is at least a little bit racist and may have made few racist comments or laugh at a good racist joke (a good racist joke?) in their lives. However, this site does not promote or justify the notion that Korea is inferior to other countries or Koreans are inferior human beings. This has been my main source of information about Korea, and I have been reading this site for a year, but I still have nothing but the greatest respect for Koreans who have worked hard to build a great nation that they love and cherish. At least for me, this site is not spreading any hate or convincing me of anything else.

To give the author of the letter some credit though:
1. The information on this site is not objective (i.e. value or motivation free). There is no doubt that matt is passionate about certain Korean related social issues and that he wants to expose and criticize specific Korean related social/cultural problems. The majority of content on this website is to convince, justifiably, the readers that certain social issues related to Korea are problematic or inappropriate. Of course, nothing is objective. Knowledge itself, as demonstrated through the Doko debate, is constructed by power, special interests, and deep seated social values. A solution for the scholars has been to identify their own values and recognize how they have influence the knowledge they have constructed.
2. The language used by matt is often politically incorrect, and sometimes, his claims are normative (i.e. containing moral statements about the way things should be). The latest example of this can be seen in the “Now Confucius is Korean”. “Koreans also say Samurai…originate in Korea” is a generalized claim about Koreans. “Korea should promote their own culture overseas…” is a moralistic claim. Being careless with the use of language would be a significant issue if you consider the increase of emails accusing this site as racist as a problem. I understand that political correctness is often over-zealous (and boring to read!), but paying little bit more attention to PC may avoid problems such as claims that can be interpreted as racist or ‘common sense’ arguments, which may be seen as imperialistic.
3. It is possible that the author may confuse the comments as a part of matt’s opinion or at least as evidence that the content of the site is causing anti-Korean sentiment.

I think it’s safe to assume the writer of this letter has only read the latest posts and do not know or understand matt’s true gripe with Korea. Putting myself in his shoes, this site would give me the impression that matt does not think highly of Korea and says a lot of things that can be insulting for a Korean to read. In addition, matt may also have successfully persuaded others in believing the same thing. I can see how I could get frustrated. However, I would also be misinformed.

I suggest that few paragraphs be written about matt’s view and beliefs about Korea and what he plans to accomplish with this site (maybe in the ‘about’ section, which is still empty), as a way to inform readers, especially Koreans, so they are able to read the content of this site in the proper context.

If advocating for social and political change is one of the aim of this site, I think my suggestion would also increase the credibility of the information at hand and make it less offensive for Korean readers who may otherwise be resistant.

But how about Killzap or other hate spreading Korean sites!? Well, that is no excuse for our own professional decency and scholarly vigour.

- Christine

To a person who has only studied in Korea (anything other than English) this may seem like a hate site – because – in Korea the concept of ‘critical analysis’ of one’s own does not exist in the same way as it does in the West. For example, I studied sociology as part of my original degree and I can assure you students analyzed and pulled apart out own culture far beyond anything that is contained here.

What you – OP – are not familiar with is the method of critical thinking and analysis that is part of cultures other than Korean.
From my experience as a teacher (both here and overseas) is that this inability to look beyond what you have been told to memorize inhibits the ability to grasp concepts in an analitcal manner – worthy of debate.

reference materials

http://english.donga.com/srv/service.php3?biid=2003021117138&path_dir=20030211

http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200302/200302130023.html

Racism is the Korean woman in the childrens’ dental clinic who told her daughter of pure K-aryan blood, when she wanted to hug my half-blood daughter, “Don’t touch her, she’s dirty.”

to the author of the letter,

people above have made some very good points.

there is no such thing as objectivity.

debate requires difference of opinion and ultimately wil only serve to make us better.

unfortunately it seems to be a common trait of NE asian nations that they are very poor at calm rational debate.

having said that there will be people who find it easier to change the topic or attack you personally. it’s the internet they will always be there, just ignore them. but please come back and discuss things you have an opinion on.

Psychoicy
Overall I have no objection but one minor point .

Of course, nothing is objective. Knowledge itself, as demonstrated through the Doko debate, is constructed by power, special interests, and deep seated social values. A solution for the scholars has been to identify their own values and recognize how they have influence the knowledge they have constructed.

It might be interesting to study how “power, special interests, and deep seated social values” have been making Korean historians keep distorting, misinterpreting historical documents and maps. But in case of Dokdo, the context is determined, the topic is definite, and there is objective criteria, or at least , inter-subjectively agreed criteria to judge the title. And that is all there is to it.
Reading Gerry’s posts about Dokdo, even Foucault would agree that Dokdo belongs to Japan.

(I think some of post modern thinkers went too far as to the historicity of the Knoweldge. It is an interesting topic though).
………………………………………………………………………….
And I am suggesting Korean people to join the discussion. That is the best way we confirm what counts as ‘objective”
They come, and shout out “this is a hate site!!” and when it comes to the discussion, they ‘ll leave, saying they are busy or something like that..

Matt,

The fan letter only shows that you gotta have this site going on…

One comment about this…

The latest example of this can be seen in the “Now Confucius is Korean”. “Koreans also say Samurai…originate in Korea” is a generalized claim about Koreans.

NO, this is not generalized. Enough Koreans are claiming this to make it rather annoying. Under-emphasizing the Korean zeal on denying everything Japanese is, basically, running away from the truth…it is as real as the sun shining in the sky…you can see it in major Korean newspspers, and I have seen Koreans claim these kind of “origin” stories…

As Korean myself majoring psychology and East Asian studies in UCI, I would like to point out that this site is very interesting source for me to look up different views and stories regarding complex East Asia’s history issue. I have been reading what you guys discuss here and I used some of the materials from this site to write research paper for my classes. I also want to point out I generally do not see racism from the comments but I am pretty sure there are some emotionally explicit expression like what Tamble mentioned “And you are all going to die of cancer because of it. Kimchi causes cancer!” Obviously depends on how one interpret this it could be racist comment or just way of expressing disgust feeling toward Korean. Anyway I just want to tell all of you people here that what you see from one dominant group of Korea is not representation of whole Korean. I know there are more anti-Japanese people but also at the same time there are Korea who aware of Korea’s self inductive nationalist movement. As Korean immigrant myself I noticed that there are so many Korean in here in US, especially the second generation show hatred toward own ethnicity. Many of you wonder why Korean is so narrow mind right? I cannot answer everything in here but I can may be answer couple of problem relate to Korea since my graduated final research was related to psychopathology of Korean immigrant and acculturation stress. First problem in Korea is coming from politicians, second it comes down from militaristic social structure, and lastly wrong perception of racial superiority. Also, I know there are racism exist in Korea not the same level you see in US but it is totally different. Like what Matt say from his experience, many Korean think ethnically mixed or black are inferior than themselves and often look down on them. However, like I mentioned previously not every Korean think same way, so do not assume every Korean do same. I have Japanese girl friend and lived in US for more than then years now and I personally know more than hundreds of Korean who knows how fucked up Korean society is and we all trying improve it. Look how America’s social atmosphere back in 50’ and 60’; there were full of racism and prejudices in the society but it is different now. Therefore I just want to say don’t be so pessimistic about future of Korea society because you never know how its society will change because Korea is still developing country.

Koreans racist? Nah… you’re kidding me!

Since so much has been said already I’ll try keep it short:

1) This site is fantastic and kept me sane while living in Korea. When everyone around you is telling you that a that 2+2=5, you have to get your Occidentalism on to remember that no matter how many times their particular brand of nonsense is uttered, that caving to a multiculti tolerance of that nonsense only encourages it. Hell, they even try to predicate policy on it.

At the world cup how many Westerners did you see in Dokdo or Be the Reds shirts? One would have been too many.

2) For Koreans racism is only racism if it’s directed at them. A common student of mine and another lecturer once asked me what she should write for the other teacher on the overly broad topic of racism. After I cited a few conventional examples, I mentioned how certain Gangnam and Apkujeong restaurants and bars had put up “No Americans” signs, although they were rejecting all white people. She couldn’t understand how this was racism and went on to very gently me that white people, Americans especially, were troublemakers. She did this knowing full well that I fit into both catergories.

I don’t get that boistrous.

GK has summed up above, what I think is the inherent cause of this kind of thinking.

.

I am not going to respond to this point by point. I think the readers know the difference between the reality, and what is written in that email

This seems to remind me of what a certain blogger that someone other than you exposed (though you took credit for) who wrote “Get minions to serve as attack dogs.” Which makes sense, of course, considering that you seem to be entirely unable to argue the point yourself, or may perhaps be too busy to actually source the material you use, or, in this case, dont use, to “prove” your point.

This post is an example of condescension to the worst degree. What was the point of posting this if you weren’t going actually respond to the writer? Ah yes, he/she simply isn’t worth responding to, as he/she is such an idiot. Worth your time to post on your site to ridicule him/her, but not worth the time to actually respond to the claims made in the email. 그냥, just feed them to the attack dogs who make up the most of your undiscerning loyal readership.

bulgasari Said:

December 1, 2006 at 2:35 pm

This post is an example of condescension to the worst degree. What was the point of posting this if you weren’t going actually respond to the writer?

This is the worst type of ethnically insensitive post possible on an Australian site. It’s Kricket season not Korean season!

kpforce Said:

December 1, 2006 at 12:45 pm

As Korean myself majoring psychology and East Asian studies in UCI, I would like to point out that this site is very interesting source for me to look up different views and stories regarding complex East Asia’s history issue. … First problem in Korea is coming from politicians, second it comes down from militaristic social structure, and lastly wrong perception of racial superiority.

When I write “Korean” rather than the more accurate “some Koreans” I am sometimes guilty of conflating the “Korean system” with “Korean people” within that system. As kpforce has noted this raises the problem of how to “live long and prosper” within the context of the “Korean system.”

Those who do not “stay long or prosper” are Korean emigrants like kpforce and his parents and naive foreigners who are endlessly ripped off by those who are by virtue of yangban genetic superiority more cunning.

Kforce

Anyway I just want to tell all of you people here that what you see from one dominant group of Korea is not representation of whole Korean. I know there are more anti-Japanese people but also at the same time there are Korea who aware of Korea’s self inductive nationalist movement.

Don’t worry I don’t think all the Korean people are like the dominant group but it is just the dominant group including some of Kyopo is so impressively hateful that it is sort of inevitable for them to be backfired.
The problem is that those who has balance remain silent and let ultra nationalistic Korean do as they want. I think Koreans and kyopo should speak out that ultra nationalistic Koreans are wrong.

As Korean immigrant myself I noticed that there are so many Korean in here in US, especially the second generation show hatred toward own ethnicity

Interesting. In Japan, some of 2nd and 3rd generation Koreans are beginning to speak out the fabrications Koreans made up about the colonization and situation of Koreans in Japan after WWⅡ.
I hope Kyopo worldwide will start working at it.

bulgasari

Which makes sense, of course, considering that you seem to be entirely unable to argue the point yourself, or may perhaps be too busy to actually source the material you use, or, in this case, dont use, to “prove” your point.

What is the point?
I think people have right to judge what is worth responding point by point.
I find your point harder to understand when you yourself selectively quote Bishop, Isabelle,Angus Hamilton etc out of context to make the Korea look as if it was advanced enough without help from other nations to develop itself on its own .(I find your blog very interesting though.)

Though the Koreans of today are the product of centuries of disadvantages, yet after nearly a year spent in the country, during which I made its people my chief study i am by no means hopeless of their future, in spite of the distinctly retrograde movements of 1897, Two things, however are essential.
Ⅰ As Korea is incapable of reforming herself from within, that she must be reformed from without.
Ⅱ That the power of the Sovereign must be placed under strict and permanent constitutional checks. Bishop p452Note that this is written after the second trip in 1897)—this is her thought after seeing Korea’s sanitation became better)

.

for Angus Hamilton, no question of the superiority of Korean living conditions, both urban and rural, to those of China, if not Japan. “Seoul,” he wrote, “was the first city in East Asia to have electricity, trolley cars, water, telephone, and telegraph systems all at the same time.” Most of these systems were installed and run by Americans……..note the indexes that the American Hamilton chooses to highlight: electricity, telephones, trolleys, schools, consumption of American exports, and cleanliness. If we find that Japan brought similar facilities to Seoul and Taipei, do we place them on the ledger of colonialism or modernization? The Korean answer is colonialism; the Japanese and Taiwanese answer is modernization(Bruce Cumings)

No unbiased observer can deny that Korean owes the loss of her independence mainly to the corruption and weakness of her old national administration.(Makenzie )

bulgasari wrote

What was the point of posting this

For me it was an interesting post whatever Matt’s point may be.
Did you get this kind of a hate e-mail when you posted an article criticizing Kenkanryu you didn’t even read? It is characteristic of many of ultra nationalistic Koreans to try to silence the writer by calling him/her anti-Korean, racist, etc. avoiding peaceful debate in public. As a result, Gerry was in substance silenced about Dokdo. That is an big problem.

just feed them to the attack dogs who make up the most of your undiscerning loyal readership.

Is Matt feeding the reader to attack him? Or the writer of the letter wrote something that should be attacked. If you want to defend him, I think you should do it.

Nobody is free from bias, Matt at occidentalism is not free from bias Matt at guest of popular feelings is nor free from bias.
If your post sound racist, then you will be criticized, or fewer people will read it. If your post echos the leftist ideology, more leftist oriented people applaud your blog.
For some reason, I think Occidentalism is read from the leftist to rightist.
For each post, there is a comment section, anybody is free to criticize the post. I think that is fair.

Rather I would like to ask what the point of your comment was.

Rather I would like to ask what the point of your comment was.

To be honest, I was just in a bad mood, partly because I had spent a few hours talking to people like the guy who wrote the hate mail above. After spending hours bringing up facts and figures to support my views and, y’know, actually argue the point about some sensitive topics (prostitution in Korea, for example), this post and the lack of a response simply struck me as very lazy and reminded me of the ‘attack dogs’ quote. For whatever reason it just struck a nerve and I overreacted. For that, and especially for the ‘undiscerning loyal readership’ remark, I apologize.

If you want to defend him, I think you should do it.

Umm, no, I disagree with him. I don’t consider this site racist, and though it may attract Korea-haters in the comment section, there are likely just as many to be found in English teacher forums about Korea. Of course, such forums don’t deal with sensitive ‘nationalist’ topics like this site does, and so this site gets more attention. While Matt and I would likely differ a great deal on our perceptions of the colonial era (though I certainly don’t think that era was 100% ‘bad’ by any stretch), I imagine our views regarding Korean nationalism and emotionalism (is that a word?) aren’t so different.

I find your point harder to understand when you yourself selectively quote Bishop, Isabelle,Angus Hamilton etc out of context to make the Korea look as if it was advanced enough without help from other nations to develop itself on its own.

Where did I argue that Korea “was advanced enough without help from other nations to develop itself on its own”? Matt showed “before” photos of Korea before any kind of modernization began, and then showed “after” photos from the latter half of the colonial period to show how backwards Korea was and how much Japan modernized the country in a material way. The photos (many of which were misattributed) are very selective and show Korea in the worst light while making Japan look very good.

I used photos and quotes from Bishop and Hamilton to show, among other things, that modernization had started before Japan took over, much of it with help from American or British contractors, and that Japan could not take credit for all of Korea’s modernization. Those quotes are not out of context at all. Bishop and the others are correct that Korea lacked strong, forward thinking leadership, but what does that have to do with the fact that Korea was beginning to see material improvements? You’re conflating material and political development. If you want to argue that both kinds of development should be looked at together, please do, but Matt himself did not not bring up political development in his post, so why would I bring it up in my response to him?

Racism is the Korean woman in the childrens’ dental clinic who told her daughter of pure K-aryan blood, when she wanted to hug my half-blood daughter, “Don’t touch her, she’s dirty.”

That’s terrible. A friend of mine is moving to an area with a school for mixed race kids because of the problems his son has been having. They recently went to a conference for mixed race families and there they met several other families, one of whom told him stories about their son. This boy was, in the schoolyard, made to lie down on the ground as a line of kids walked on him, while another time he was forced to go around the schoolyard acting like a beggar. To this my friend asked, “Where do little kids learn to treat someone like that?”

Nobody is free from bias, Matt at occidentalism is not free from bias Matt at guest of popular feelings is nor free from bias.

I think Ponta gave a real good explanation here. Yup this site is Biased. Probably a little pro-japanese, pro-US and Anti-Korean.
But that is not hidden from the start by Matt who clearly show his way of thinking in the Faq section.
Considering you’ll find all kind of bias in every sites who discuss about theses issues this is quite normal (especially considering the bias we see here is quite small).
Personnaly i prefer to see a well shown bias from the start. It shows the writer is not trying to deceive you and force you to check what is beeing said rather that instantly accepting everything that’s beeing said as the ultimate truth.
Of course if everytime you check you see the person tried to decieve you you’ll stop going there… And now i have to admit i hardly ever go to read pro-SK sites anymore… Not that they lacked bias mind you.

Now beeing neither Japanese nor Anglo-Saxon i have to say i do sense in either matt of others who write here condescendance toward Koreans (which Anglo-Saxon may not realise). But for it to be sensed as rascism makes me wonder if those who say this site is a Hate-site or a rascist site may not be overly sensitive (a little bit of paranoia maybe).

Anywau continue with the good work Matt.

bulgasari

I used photos and quotes from Bishop and Hamilton to show, among other things, that modernization had started before Japan took over, much of it with help from American or British contractors, and that Japan could not take credit for all of Korea’s modernization. Those quotes are not out of context at all. Bishop and the others are correct that Korea lacked strong, forward thinking leadership, but what does that have to do with the fact that Korea was beginning to see material improvements? You’re conflating material and political development. If you want to argue that both kinds of development should be looked at together, please do, but Matt himself did not not bring up political development in his post, so why would I bring it up in my response to him?

Fair enough, though I still think a couple of your articles about pre-colonial period , though pretty good, might have given impression as I described.

Yes, material and political development are distinct but they are closely related. Just a look at difference in the development of North Korea and South Korea will be sufficient enough to see the point. And material development you are talking about took place after Japan opened the port of Korea. And I am not sure if Korea without annexation could have developed as much as it did under Japanese rule.

Don’t take me wrong, I am not saying Japan should take all the credit for the development. For my part, I want to see it as the product of the corporation between Japanese and Koreans. By looking at it that way, by emphasizing that aspect, there will be more possibility Japan and Korea go well together for the future just like Japan and Taiwan. Interpretation is embedded in how you look at the present and the future. I don’t deny that there was a dark side to the lives under Japanese government……there is an aspect under which Japanese and Korean as well suffered under Japanese government at the time, and there might have been suffering unique to Korean lives under colonization, but Korean historians have been emphasizing and exaggerating it too much without substantial evidences. And as a result, younger generation can not get away from the idea of Koreans as eternal victims.

I am looking forward to your article about “black umbrella”. I think the testimony needs to be backed up with other collaborating evidences but the book seems to give an interesting perspective.
Thanks

p.s. I am relieved to see the response to Mark A; not all Koreans are racist. And if more Koreans make such an comment, I think Korea’s image will drastically change.

Condescending?

What’s more condescending than the trick, used by yangban-style Koreans, of ad verecundiam?

That being yangban-style Korean (therefore superior genetic stock. A belief engendered by a corrupt education system as noted by modern Koreans*) and an attendee at a famous (yangban-style) university, logically means that one is more knowledgeable about Korean society.

No. It doesn’t.

Provide independently verifiable evidence with logical inferences and forget about this arrogant ad verecundiam.

The letter below is by a little lamb lost prey to the ruthless and arrogant yangban Koreans who control Korea’s education system.

Foreigners know nothing about modern education systems? Where does Noh Mu-hyeon send his son to school?

* Stressed by aimless education policy

I’m a second year student in high school, and just like all my peers all my time and effort are devoted to studying to get into a good college. We are the first group to come under the new college entrance system. What really worries us is not the changed college entrance system; it is the uncertainty created by continuously changing education policy.

The changes started when we were in third grade in middle school. To tackle the problem of soaring private education costs, change was introduced to strengthen the public school system. The education ministry announced that it would adopt a relative evaluation system to replace the existing absolute evaluation system for school grades.

Test formats were changed to include writing tests, discarding the old short-answer problems. Upon hearing the news, I was full of hope thinking I could go to any high school if I did well. A lot of my friends who were qualified to enter prestigious foreign language high schools chose instead to attend regular high schools to get good grades. But with continuing changes of policy we grew bewildered. In defiance of governmental measures to equalize high schools, universities responded by including essay writing and speaking skills in their entrance tests.

Moreover, the importance of the Korean SAT in the system kept growing. We found ourselves stuck between the “deadly triangle” of school grades, the Korean SAT and essay writing.

There was more ahead of us. From the moment we entered high school until Seoul National University announced its 2008 guidelines for entrance, we have been like little lambs lost. For example, everybody expected a large number of students would be accepted by early decision in the first semester.

Unexpectedly, however, that option completely disappeared from the system. It is impossible to keep up with the changing policy, and we naturally depend more on private after-school programs, paying 50,000 to 2 million won. Many parents, including mine, complain about the burden imposed on top of what’s already a heavy load. We are left with no choice. Clearly we have been failed by the aimless education policy; innocent students and parents are driven from pillar to post in a game without rules.

Now as my generation of high school students focuses attention on college entrance, we are nervous, not knowing how the education system will change again. We end up having to cut sleeping time to no more than 5 hours a day. I bet this was not what the education ministry had in mind when it first announced changes in the system. The worst aspect of this system is not the massive amount of work we have to do. It is the absence of clear directions for us to follow.

by Lee Hyun-ju

Joongang Ilbo
October 31, 2006 KST 16:27 (GMT+9)

Ocebey Said:

December 2, 2006 at 9:04 am

Anyway continue with the good work Matt.

The good work being to provide valuable information for foreigners that is counter to the propaganda line spewed out by yangban-style Koreans and their acolytes and to provide a forum for modern Koreans like Lee Hyun-ju – the hapless lamb who is prey to the
yangban-style wolves of the Korean night.

For those who wish for me to proved evidence that Dokdo is Korea’s… give me your email. I will send accurate information about why Dokdo belongs to Korea… which was done by American studnets in Havard. One of the researcher was the brother of my good friend who attends Havard University as student. The most recent claim for Dokdo to be part of Korea was agreed by Japan after WWII. Japanese Empire, defeated by Americans in WWII, lost vast amount of land in Amerian according to “Japanese Instrument of Surrender” treaty signed in 1945. America, wanting to strip down Japanese power, gave Korea right to own Dokdo. But Japan is arguing that South Korea has no right because the treaty was signed to Korea that was unified and is not valid. Excuse me? South Korea is the recongized Korea by America who signed the treaty. Just because Korea is not unified does not justify that fact that Japan could just take it away!!?

I am actually having some serious debate in here…
http://www.occidentalism.org/?p=255

If you want to debate against me… THAT WOULD BE GREAT! I love debating… not just on Korean matters, but regarding other historical events and culture as well. You see, I am obsess with history. I try not to be biased, and I do that pretty well. All culture and nations are unqiue, but that does not necessary mean that one is better. I oppose anti-Korean opinions, and vice versa.

P.S. My English is not very good. Moved to Canada about two years ago. If there’s misunderstanding… let me know.

And as a Korean, allow me to apologies for many foolish moves and comments that some Koreans made. I visited Hall of Shame and… mein Gott in himmel… bonk can’t even insult properly. I hope intolerable attitudes that some Koreans made will not make damage the unique ness Korean culture to shame.

pekau

For those who wish for me to proved evidence that Dokdo is Korea’s… give me your email. I will send accurate information about why Dokdo belongs to Korea… which was done by American studnets in Havard

Please,
ponta_at_oocidentalism@yahoo.co.jp

And is there any reason you can not publicize it?

Pekau:

japanprobe@gmail.com

Please send me the study. It sounds interesting.

what do you expect? korea is a developing country. ALL of the politicians of korea are corrupted. President Roh is a dumb ass. all of the politicians in korea are all airheads and retarded. they make President Bush look smart.

Yes, korea`s mentality is outdated. maybe about 40 years behind the U.S.A.

but not everything in korea is bad. the food is very delicious and healthy. the u.s.a. is outdated on knowing what food is healthy. americans are just too damn fat.

Korean electronics are doing an excellent job. Samsung, LG, I-River and mobiBlue are great companies. Samsung and LG make great LCD and plasma television, DVD players, digital camcorders and home appliances such as microwaves and washing machines as well. Hyundai and Kia are on the list as one of the safest cars in the U.S.A. this year. It was on ABC News, MSN and Yahoo! as well.

But korean politicians are slowing the growth of development in korea. the goverment is STILL brainwashing its people. South Korea claims it is a democracy, but not really.

koreans need to be aware about the environment as well. they need to stop littering. people are littering everywhere. if the goverment is trying to brainwash its people, brainwash something useful that will make its country better and cleaner.

but in terms of electronic products, korean products are doing a great job. samsung and lg phones rock!

Hi pekau,

You wrote, “America, wanting to strip down Japanese power, gave Korea right to own Dokdo”.

You must read all the history concerning the SF peace treaty.
It didn’t include Takeshima/Dokdo in the list of Korean territory which was to be returned to Korea, it was intentionally deleted from the list by USA.

It is apparent if you read the following data – written in chronological order.

1) 29th January 1946 – SCAPIN 677 (placed Takeshima/Dokdo outside Japan)

2) 22nd June 1946 – SCAPIN 1033 (blocked Japan from exploiting the adjacent ocean resources)

3) 16th September 1947 – SCAPIN 1778 (the islets for use by the Allied Powers as a bombing range for the Far East Air Force)

4) 19th September 1949 – SCAPIN 2046　(Abolished SCAPIN 1033)

5) 14th November 1949 – a telegram from William Sebald to W. Walton Butterworth:
“Article 6: Recommend reconsideration Liancourt rocks (Takeshima), Japan’s claim to these islands is old and valid. Security considerations might conceivably envisage weather and rader stations thereon”.

6) 19th November 1949 – a letter from Butterworth to the Secretary of the State:
“With regard to the dispositon of islands formerly posessed by Japan in the direction of Korea it is suggested that Liancourt Rocks (Takeshima) be specified in our proposed Article 3 as belonging to Japan. Japan’s claim to these islands is old and appears valid, and it is difficult to regard them as islands off the shore of Korea. Security considerations might render the provision of weather and radar station on these islands a matter of interest to the United States”.

7) 29th December 1949 – 6th amendment of the treaty draft:
“Article 3 1.The Territory of Japan shall comprise the four principal Japanese islands of Honshu, Kyushu, Shikoku and Hokkaido and all adjacent minor islands, including the islands of the Inland sea(seto Naikai); Tsushima,Takeshima (Liancourt Rocks), Oki retto, Sado, Okujiri, Rebun, Riishiri and all other islands in the Japan Sea (Nippon Kai) within a line connecting the farther shores of Tsushima, Takeshima and Rebun; the Goto archipelago, the Ryukyu Islands north of 29° N. Latitude, and all other islanls of the East China Sea east of longtude 127° east of Greenwich and north of 29°N. Latitude; the Izu Islands southward to end including Sofu Gan (lot’s Wife) and all other islands of the Philippine Sea nearer to the four principal islands than the islands named; and the Habomai group and Shikotan lying to the east and south of a line extending from a point in 43°35′ N.Lati- tude, 145°35′ E. logitude to a point in 44°N. latitude, 146°30′ E. longitude, and to the south of a line drawn due east on the parsllel in 44° N. Lati- tude. All of the islands identified above, with a three-mile belt of territorial waters, shall belong to Japan”.

8) July 1950 – Commentary on Draft Treaty of Peace with Japan:
(It also says that Takeshima belongs to Japan)

9) 19th July 1951 – Korea wants amendment. Korean ambassador had a meeting with John Foster Dulles:
“Mr. Dulles then inquired as to the location of the two islands, Dokdo and Parangdo. Mr. han stated that these were two small islands lying in the Sea of Japan, he believed in the general vicinity of Ullungdo. Mr. Dulles asked whether these islands had been Korean before the Japanese annexation, to which the Ambassador replied in the affirmative. If that were the case, Mr Dulles saw no particular problem in including these islands in the pertinent part of the treaty which related to the renunciation of Japanese territorial claims to Korean territory”.

10) the last draft of treaty:
“In the document footnote 2 above, Mr. Rusk continued : “As regards the island of Dokdo… this normally uninhibited rock formation was according to our information never treated as part of Korea and, since about 1905, has been under the jurisdiction of the Oki islands Branch Office of Shimane Prefecture of Japan. The island does not appear ever before to have been claimed by Korea”. (Korea had in the meantime withdrawn the claim to Parangdo.)

11) 8th September 1951 peace Conference – (treaty coming into effect on 28th April 1952)

12) 18th January 1952 – President Ree declared 海洋主権宣言
(Japan made an objection on 28th January 1952)

13) 1954 – “Report of Ambassador James A. Van Fleet”
“Unilateral proclamation of sovereignty over the seas (Syngman Rhee line) is illegal.
The United States had concluded Japanese sovereignty over the rocks.
The dispute over the rocks might properly be referred to the International Court of Justice”.

Addendum (Rusk’s document; 10th August 1951)
Excerpt: “Liancourt Rocks, this normally uninhabited rock formation was according to our information never treated as part of Korea and, since about 1905, has been under the jurisdiction of the Oki Islands Branch Office of Shimane Prefecture of Japan. The island does not appear ever before to have been claimed by Korea.”

fuck…how can people care so much about this crap

Dear hardyandtiny,

crap?

What are you calling crap?
You must know the truth without prejudices.
This problem concerning Dokdo is an obstacle for the true friendship between Korean people and Japanese.

I

everbody, korea has an obsession with the past. it is okay to study it, but need to look forward now. Make the country better. It’s just wasting energy. korea is a developing country, thats why they do not know what they are doing. koreans don’t know how to handle trash or obey traffic laws.

korean products are great like Samsung, LG, SKC, I-River and mobiBlue. I never buy Japanese products or cars. I own all Korean and U.S. products ONLY! No Japanese cars either. But I do want to help Korea develop. that is why I will go to korea later and help work things out. korea is still very dirty and needs to be cleaned up.

> korea has an obsession with the past.
>
Yes. However, there are many ways to help Korea’s developing.

To study Korea is also another way to help Korea.

I guess that this blog has been very helpful to Korea for two reasons. The one reason is that this blog clear Korean obsession to people all over the world. And the another is that this blog have pointed out thier obsession sincerely. For the viewers of this blog, Korea clearly has the obsession with the past. However, if people arount the world do not understand the obsession and never point out it, Korea will never notice their obsession and never improve it by themselves. What really needed for Korea is to open their eyes by themselves. Only by doing so, Korea can become a matured developed country.

I hope Korea can become friendly with today’s conflicting countries
with each other.

pekau
I haven’t received e-mail yet. Has he not finished wrting the article on Dokdo yet?

read this article from the Korea Herald. It is a good article. Go to this website:

http://www.koreaherald.co.kr/SITE/data/html_dir/2006/12/06/200612060017.asp

kyoupou,

I don’t think the article is good…in fatc, it’s a little misleading. Korean electronics aren’t more expensive than Japanese ones. The’re much cheaper, and it seems like if one has enough money, they’ll buy Japanese or European brands (like Phillips). Motorola is doing pretty good…it even seems that Motorola has higher brand value than Korean ones (if someone wants to refute this, go ahead)

And about advertising Korean culture to the world…why is this even necessary? I often see the Korean media talking about this, but Koreans have already overdone it. Nobody really cares whether Korea is great or not (or for that matter, whether China or Japan is cool or not..). If the product is good, people will buy it…people don’t buy things because it’s from some “cool” country…so the best thing to do is manufacture good products rather than engage in propaganda of your country being “great” (and never to engage in negative campaigns of other countires) . It seems to me like another displaced nationalism going on again.

Good point Tomato, the article is full of inaccurate information and chest thumping.

Finding cheep Korean products in the USA is not newsworthy. Why is there a need to lie and say that the products are more expensive then Japanese products. Are there even any American brand TV? Why do Koreans feel the need to read about how people will buy their products in the USA?

I guess it must be strange for Koreans to understand that Americans will buy a product and not worry about the nations that manufactures it. This is why Koreans think its unpatriotic to buy a ford and Americans dont care and will buy a Hyundie.

For me this is like free advertising for samsung. Here is another example.

http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200611/200611290034.html

tomato and others:

I don’t think the article is good…in fatc, it’s a little misleading. Korean electronics aren’t more expensive than Japanese ones. The’re much cheaper, and it seems like if one has enough money, they’ll buy Japanese or European brands (like Phillips). Motorola is doing pretty good…it even seems that Motorola has higher brand value than Korean ones (if someone wants to refute this, go ahead)

Actually, Korean brand, Samsung, prob has higher brand value than Panasonic, Motorola, Nokia etc since 2004.(prob not sony though ^-^ ) ummm here is an article from the magazine Wired… http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/13.05/samsung.html?pg=1&topic=samsung&topic_set=

but even Sony is getting helped by Samsung now… so…

its profit was higher than Sony, Panasonic, Motorola, and Nokia combined in 2004…

and technology wise… just amazing… first in flash memory, dram, crt&LCD monitors…. 2nd in CRT TVs(??) 3rd in Cellular phones. I say that’s pretty good even though they make like everything electronic.

I think other Korean brands sucks, but Samsung… is just great.

Bad thing about this article though… this shows that engineers are not good at history…

brutal Japanese occupation that lasted from 1905 to 1945 – its language suppressed, its palaces destroyed, its citizens forced to assume Japanese names

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/13.05/wired40.html

One note that the Korean electronic companies seem to be importing high-tech parts from Japan and putting them together as their products…so when Korean electronic products sells well, so does Japan. I recall that Korea is the 3rd or 2nd best customer of Japanese products?

I guess nobody can be the sole winner in this global market.

日本語
韓国語

Watch a commercial of Samsong in Europe.
There is Fujiyama.
CMで富士山を映しているようでは、韓国の企業だと思われなくて当然だろ。
It is natural that it does not seem that it is a Korean company in this.

The article “Korean culture overseas” http://www.koreaherald.co.kr/SITE/data/html_dir/2006/12/06/200612060017.asp is very similar to another Korean article “Korea Slow to Promote Food Industry Abroad” http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200607/200607120012.html published on July 12,2006. Both articles lament the assumption that Koreans haven’t done enough to “let foreigners experience and appreciate Korean food and culture.” However, it does not logically follow that if Country A dominates certain sectors of Country B with its products that the food and culture of Country A should also be widely popular in Country B.

The world’s largest food producer, the Swiss company Nestle, operates some 500 plants in 77 countries and employs around 230,000 people. Last year’s sales totaled US$60 billion — more than even Samsung Electronics managed to pull in.

Yet, you never hear the Swiss griping about the dearth of Swiss restaurants around the world. Nor do the Swiss boast about Nestle’s success in the same manner Koreans boast about Samsung.

According to a study by the National Intelligence Service, there are over 12,000 Japanese restaurants in the U.K., 9,000 Indian and 7,000 Vietnamese, compared to a mere 50 Korean restaurants.

12,000 Japanese restaurants versus 50 Korean restaurants in the UK. I very much doubt that the success of Japanese food and culture has much if anything to do with the Japanese government. Most of these restaurants are not owned or operated by Japanese. Even in the United States, most Japanese restaurants are not owned by Japanese.

Ha’s 27-year-old son and sushi chef, Jason, is more direct. “They’re jealous because we own so many of the sushi restaurants now. For every five sushi restaurants owned by Koreans, there’s one owned by a Japanese.”

“California rolls drive them to distraction” http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-fi-japanfood2dec02,0,1540722.story?coll=la-home-headlines

Koreans are lamenting a “problem” that the Koreans themselves have created. Koreans have gravitated to operating restaurants that are more profitable, i.e. serving food that is more palatable and it doesn’t include Korean food except perhaps as a side dish to Japanese food. The simple reason why Korean food isn’t as popular as other foods is that it doesn’t taste as good as those other foods to people outside of Korea. Promoting Korean food as health food isn’t going to work either.

Westerners today are very much interested in diet and health food. If so, what could be better than Korean cuisine? Korean culinary art is well known for focusing on health food as well as a variety of vegetable dishes.

If that is the case, why is it that Koreans don’t live as long as people in the US or Japan.
Life expectancy at birth (years) Japan 81.2, Canada 80.1, Italy 79.7, Germany 78.6, UK 78.4, USA 77.7, S. Korea 76.8.
IDB Summary Demographic Data – http://www.census.gov/ipc/www/idbsum.html

Not all food is created equal. The solution isn’t more Korean intervention but less. Koreans need to allow localization of their foods even if it doesn’t suit their own tastes. Take the example of ramen in Mexico.

Only 3 years old, León Gustavo Dávila Hinojosa is still learning to speak Spanish. But the precocious youngster already knows a bit of Japanese: “Maruchan.” …“With salsa!” he said exuberantly at the mention of his favorite noodle soup.

“Where did the frijoles go? Ramen noodles take the salsa” http://www.thedailyjournalonline.com/article.asp?CategoryId=14091&ArticleId=201507
Ramen with salsa, something you would have a hard time finding in Japan. Ramen has become so pervasive that a national newspaper recently dubbed Mexico “Maruchan Nation.”

What happens when Japanese attempt to promote Korean food and culture? We have the Japan Korea Kimchi Dispute http://www.american.edu/TED/kimchi.htm.

It is a fact that about 80 to 90 percent of South Korea’s kimchi exports have gone to Japan for the last few years, according to Korean Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry.

Japan was the primary country that enjoyed Kimchi. Other countries didn’t particularly care for it. But the Japanese modified it to suit their tastes and began exporting it to other countries.

Japanese food companies have begun to make Japanese-style kimchi as kimchi has been getting popularity in Japan. Furthermore, Japan is expanding its share of the world kimchi market: today, the amount of Japanese kimchi export excesses that of Korean kimchi export.

The Japanese-style Kimchi was more popular than the Korean version to consumers in countries outside of Korea. But the Koreans were reluctant to tinker with their own version and copy the Japanese.

“Sushi, Russia’s new caviar” http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/index.php?menuID=2&subID=1121. When sushi appeared in the New Russia ten years ago, Muscovites went crazy for it. Why? Because it was altered to fit local tastes. And the continued success of Japanese food has nothing to do with the Japanese government.

The Singaporean chain, Sakae Sushi, is planning a $1m expansion into Moscow next year to capitalise on the trend.

Chef Irina Illarionova of Yapona Mama:

Of course, real Japanese food can be found only in Japan. Elsewhere, it is a combination of various local influences and is adapted to other people’s tastes. I believe there is nothing wrong with that.

“More Than Just Raw Fish” http://www.go-magazine.ru/articles/show/630.

The problem, namely the lack of enthusiasm for Korean food doesn’t lie with the Korean Ministry of Culture and Tourism, nor does the solution. If Koreans are really serious about promoting their food they need to allow others, including Japanese, to experiment and modify foods to local tastes and allow others to help promote Korean culture.

tomato Said:
One note that the Korean electronic companies seem to be importing high-tech parts from Japan and putting them together as their products…so when Korean electronic products sells well, so does Japan.

It’s not just parts but technology from Japanese companies. Hyundai vs. Toyota, complete with espionage. http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061127/FREE/311270002/1003&refsect=

Shibuya, given the title of vice president, Hyundai-Kia North American Quality Center, arrived with a passel of materials detailing Toyota’s quality procedures. During his three years at Hyundai’s America Technical Center, Shibuya often gave PowerPoint presentations emblazoned with the Toyota logo, according to Hyundai sources and a recent lawsuit…. Added a Hyundai source: “It was not a few documents. It was binders and binders of information.” The individual spoke anonymously for fear of reprisal from the company.

and technology wise… [samsung are] just amazing… first in flash memory, dram, crt&LCD monitors…. 2nd in CRT TVs(??) 3rd in Cellular phones. I say that’s pretty good even though they make like everything electronic.

So Samsung is doing what Japanese companies did back in the 60s through to the 80s – copying without much innovation. These days markets are lead by companies like Sony, Nintendo and Toyota. Samsung is still a “copy” company.

Having said that,

The world’s largest food producer, the Swiss company Nestle, operates some 500 plants in 77 countries and employs around 230,000 people. Last year’s sales totaled US$60 billion — more than even Samsung Electronics managed to pull in.

Yet, you never hear the Swiss griping about the dearth of Swiss restaurants around the world. Nor do the Swiss boast about Nestle’s success in the same manner Koreans boast about Samsung.

When was the last time you picked up a Swiss newspaper? For all we know it could be full of “Nestle is a great company” articles and advertisements. Australian mining company BHP used to be a source of pride for all Australians. Plenty of companies worldwide appeal to their contrymen’s sense of natinal pride. This method of marketing is not something unique to Korea.

Promoting Korean food as health food isn’t going to work either.

Westerners today are very much interested in diet and health food. If so, what could be better than Korean cuisine? Korean culinary art is well known for focusing on health food as well as a variety of vegetable dishes.

If that is the case, why is it that Koreans don’t live as long as people in the US or Japan.
Life expectancy at birth (years) Japan 81.2, Canada 80.1, Italy 79.7, Germany 78.6, UK 78.4, USA 77.7, S. Korea 76.8.
IDB Summary Demographic Data – http://www.census.gov/ipc/www/idbsum.html

That’s a pretty bold of you to draw that conclusion from those figures. The fact that Japan’s medical system overprescribes for even the smallest ailments wouldn’t have any effect on those figures, right? At any rate, I think you’re not alone in drawing those conclusions – you’ve got the world’s uninformed masses on your side!

RC

JD Powers Vechicle Dependabilty study results: KIA Hyundie are at the bottom of the barrel.

http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/releases/pdf/2006133.pdf

But in the sub compact econobox KIA and Hyundie do well

Guess which part will be in the Korean newspapers.

Garlicbreath

Interesting… the rankings of Japanese manufacturers are generally consistent with their brand image….Toyota and Honda on the top, Subaru and Nissan in the middle…and others following. MItsubishi had good brand name, but fell way behind because of the recall problems. .bad management kills.

Interesting that Lexus is doing better than Toyota and Acura doing better than Honda…I guess if you pay better you get better cars from the same company.

Mazda has Ford engines but is a little behind…I wonder why. Now check out Mercedes…I guess their brand name is worth more than the quality of the car…this kind of achievement is trully European! I guess it will take some while for Toyota(Lexus) to get to this kind of brand-image level!

how many times do i have to say this, korea is a developing country. everybody knows that.. korea is just at that stage trying to develop. but i and my family members never buy japanese products at all. its either korean or american brands. As for cars, if I could get any car of my choice, it would be a Lotus, Jaguar, Mercedes or Volvo.

i or my family don’t even own one single brand or product from japan.
korea needs to get as much money into the country to develop more.

also koreans need to be environmentally aware to keep the country clean. yes, politicians in korea are extremely stupid.

with all the arguing here, it shows that people have different values and ideology. that is why you can also say that melting pot countries do not work. people with different values due to nationality, religion, etc… that is why koreans, stay in your own country, japanese, stay in Japan, chinese, stay in china, europeans stay in europe, latin americans, stay in latin america… then we would not have a problem and no need for riots to occur. that is also why we can see several inter-racial marriages and international marriages that end up in divorce. it’s very high. people have different values due to the difference of culture, nationality, religion.

in my dormitory, when people from Asia that are set up with white americans, they do not get a long and the american asks for a new roommate. they do not like the smell of asian food and complain.

so just stay in your own country and just work on making it a better place. Always put the garbage in the garbage can. plant trees and always recycle garbage. use public transportation as much as possible. at least koreans are not fat like americans.

jeon hye bin, sung hi lee, jeon ji hyun, han chae young, choi ji woo, and lee hyori have the best tits. i want to suck them.

like Michael Jackson says, “It doesn’t matter who’s wrong or right just BEAT IT!” or what Depeche Mode says, “People are People so why should it be.” what about Tears for Fears, “Everybody Want to Rule The World”

the hell with the past, just focus making each one of your country develop peacefully and be clean. that is the one thing that pisses me off about korea. littering is too fucking extreme. koreans need to also work on manners such as not alwasy cutting in line at the subway station, Burger King, post office and at the bank.

Kyopo sez:

You dont like Jap

but i and my family members never buy japanese products at all

Even though you say this

the hell with the past

You dont seem to like race mixing

then we would not have a problem and no need for riots to occur. that is also why we can see several inter-racial marriages and international marriages that end up in divorce. it’s very high

Why not just go back to Korea and you can be in the fatherland. You will help the economy and keep Korea pure.