Occidentalism

This certainly isn’t “new” news. The major differece between this (plus the business during the Korean War) and the one during World War 2 is the abuses that happened during the recruiting, actually doing the job, and the aftermath.

2000 rapes were occured by occupation forces in Kanagawa Prefecture for first month of the occupation. There were about 30,000 rapes for the occupation period.

The comfort woman of WW2 was a business too. There are some American who criticizes becoming of the Japanese military note that the comfort woman had invalidity. And, they say that they differ from the comfort woman by Japan army in this respect.
However, it seems that they do not know it is GHQ to have invalidated the Japanese military note.

1. Opp, are you by chance the Opp that was sockpuppeting on Wikipedia? Just asking.

2. Reread my writing before twisting what I say. I never denied that the comfort women of WW2 was a business.

General Tiger, Your writing says that the disgusting Japanese sexual enslavement of women was evil and wrong, but that the disgusting Korean sexual enslavement of women was enlightened business sense.

Was a Japanese comfort woman by GHQ freewill?
There is a Japanese woman who became a comfort woman to defend a general Japanese woman from the rape by GHQ. There is a Japanese woman sold by parents because it is a poor age of postwar days, too. There is a woman who became a comfort woman by herself for poverty, too. How much was there a Japanese who hoped really and had become a comfort woman?
Most Japanese do not have will make a fuss about these shameful bygones by GHQ. However, if Japan is criticized by “coercion in the broad sense”, the United States will be criticized. And, the report of United States CRS makes “coercion in the broad sense” a problem.

General Tiger

This certainly isn’t “new” news. The major difference between this (plus the business during the Korean War) and the one during World War 2 is the abuses that happened during the recruiting, actually doing the job, and the aftermath

Evidence please.

Or do you mean abuses in the recruitment in the peninsula took place often because most brokers were Koreans?

It is natural to suppose that Japan and women have not changed their attitude radically toward brothels.
Japan had local brokers run the brothels. In
some cases, the living condition was horrible, in other cases, women became rich.

It is very hypocritical and cruel to suppose that Korean women suddenly began to wish to be prostitutes voluntarily to serve for UN soldiers and they were treated well.

Poverty, together with low class status, has remained the primary reason for women’s entry into camp town prostitution from the 1950s to the mid-1980s

Still others were physically forced into prostitution by flesh-traffickers or pimps who waited at train and bus stations, greeted young girls arriving from the countryside with promises of employment or room and board, then”initiated” them–through rape–into sex work or sold them to brothels

Sex Among Allies
by Katharine H. S. Moon

In Korea, there have been large number of prostitute, and Korean brokers and their abuse with or without Japanese rule.
Such prostitutes have been despised by Korean people and they have been left helpless by Korean society.

After all it seems Korean society as a whole does not move unless there is the hatred toward Japan. And if it is for bashing Japan, they intimidate the former comfort women not to receive the fund.

General Tiger

The major difference between this (plus the business during the Korean War) and the one during World War 2 is to believe the lies of Korean comfort women or not who are afraid of being criticized as “Chinirupa”.
Were all Korean comfort women kidnapped or under coercion during WW2?
Did they start to volunteer after WW2 suddenly for American GIs?
hahahahaha
If they hadn’t cared to work for Black American GIs whom Koreans discriminate most, they wouldn’t have hesitated to work for Japanese soldiers, either.
But if they admit the truth, they will be criticized as “Chinirupa” in Korean society.
No choice for them.

Good evening
It seems that the document of CNN is not touching the U.S. soldier’s physical assault.
Rape by the U.S. soldier was performed also in daytime or the presence of the whole company.
Even if those who stop violence were policemen, they were shot to death.
The Japanese woman did not have a venereal disease.
The U.S. soldier carried in illness from the battlefield.
The emergency interpellation was performed in the Parliament of Japan in 1953.
Here is a part of record.
http://tech.heteml.jp/2007/03/2_2.html#more
The person in charge was asked for the geisha girl, and she became comfort women. Didn’t recognition that Europeans and Americans’ geisha girl was a prostitute begin from here?
The victim of rape also became comfort women from self-abandonment.

A book of memoir named, ‘Appeal in the presence of death’ is quoted in above site.
http://www.watai.jp/mokuroku/image/rekisi/1270.jpg
There is a memoir that a 19- year-old virgin was raped by 3 UN (almost US) soldiers and became comfort woman and died of serious veneral desease at 23 years old.
She would have kept the disgrace to herselves if she lived long enough.
Amerian journalist wrote a book on the brothel in Vietnam war too as follows.
http://www.amazon.com/Against-Our-Will-Women-Rape/dp/0449908208
She seems saying it is rape, not prostitution.

I have no intention to be anti-Americanism:on the contrary, I am pro-USA. And I believe most of Japanese are.

But it is really shame the US congress is influenced by Korean hatred. Some of wise American experts are saying just ignore it;it is unbinding and just one of many resolutions. Yes, that is an wise advice, and I think that is what Japanese should do to keep a good relation with the US and not to be trapped by Korea (and China.)
But out of respect for the US, I cannot help but say, Mr. USA, what has become of you?

And with Ken, let me cite from “against our will”

As Peter Arnett told me, “Prostitution was a time-honored
tradition. Certain heads of families would not think twice before routinely
selling their daughters if they needed the money.”

“The
miserable conditions of war have forced our people to sell everything – their
wives, children, relatives and friends – for the American dollar,”

Reporter Arnett saw the gradual acceptance of U.S. military-controlled and -regulated brothels as a natural outgrowth of what he called “the McNamara theory”:

They were recruited by the province chief, who took his payoff, and were channeled into town by the mayor of Lai Khe, who also got his cut. The American military, which kept its hands partially clean by leaving the procurement and price
arrangement to Vietnamese civilians, controlled and regulated the health and
security features of the trade. “The girls were checked and swabbed every week
for VD by Army medics,” my informed source told me approvingly.

Military brothels on Army base camps (”Sin Cities”, “Disney-lands” or “boom-boom parlors”) were built by decision of a division commander, a two-star general, and were under the direct operational control of a brigade commander with the rank of colonel. Clearly, Army brothels in Vietnam existed
by the grace of Army Chief of Staff William C. Westmoreland, the United States
Embassy in Saigon, and the Pentagon.

link
It is difficult to differentiate it from comfort station system in the peninsula.

Apology and compensation they are demanding to Japan , as U.S. Congressional Research Service has made it clear, is not legal, but rather moral, and political one;the legal issue was settled by the treaty between Korea and Japan.
By the same token, Japan has no legal right to demand apology and compensation for the civilians/non-combatants victimized by indiscriminate bombing and atomic bombs etc, but again by the same token, theoretically the resolution will open the way for Japanese citizen to demand, on political and moral ground, to demand apology and compensation from the US.

With Roh, is the USA determined to be involved with a diplomatic war with Japan?
Huge number of pro-American Japanese will be shocked.

I’ll put an end to my rants here.

“Now is the time to bear the unbearable,”

I shall make my thoughts clear (as I’ve been doing on other threads):

I am not against the concept of comfort women in the first place. I also believe that the Japanese Government does not need to give compensations and such, but should admit that they had a moral responsibility for allowing its military to “exploit” such women, while not stopping colonial governments from actually having a quota on recruiting the women.

In my Neverland, I wish for this issue to end by the Japanese Government issuing a final, grand apology, and for the women to stop this.

PS: Saying that the GIs had moral issues is funny, given the rapings that the Japanese Imperial Military did during WW2 (aside from the comfort women, that is)

It’s amusing to see people denying the problems of WW2 (again, besides the comfort women issue), so that they can turn the tables

Saying that the GIs had moral issues is funny, given the rapings that the Japanese Imperial Military did during WW2 (aside from the comfort women, that is)

Exactly, this is a double criterion. These Japanese soldiers were judged as B and C class war crime under the name of International Law.
The law assumed that the victorious country may rape doesn’t exist. Occupation forces should maintain the law order in the occupation country by the Geneva treaty. The United States also was ratifying this treaty.
The United States military law has not permitted raping either.
Man of such recognition cannot criticize Japan.

In my Neverland, I wish for this issue to end by the Japanese Government issuing a final, grand apology, and for the women to stop this.

This is bullshit.
Who is demanding apology and compensatoin that she have no intention to accept?
Japan issued apology and set up the fund.
Korean nationalism intimidated the comfort women not to receive the fund.
And who is still exploting Korean women?

PS: Saying that the GIs had moral issues is funny, given the rapings that the Japanese Imperial Military did during WW2 (aside from the comfort women, that is)

It’s amusing to see people denying the problems of WW2 (again, besides the comfort women issue), so that they can turn the tables

This is another bullshit.

There is no doubt that Japanese troop raped and committed atrocity. That does not negate the fact GI raped and utilized comfort station. That is an elementary logic.

That enoumous aomont of Koreans collabolated with Japanese and Koreans are hiding the truth does not means some Korean comfort women victimized by Japanese troop has no right to apology and compensation. Japan acknowledged she was wrong and apologized.

It is amusing the one who have something to do with distorted Korean related articles of wiki tend to assume mistakenly Japan has not acknowledged its wrongs during WWⅡ just like Korean ultra nationalists.
And as is ofen the case with other Korean people I talked with on the Internet, it seems he feel no need for Korea to acknowledge its dark past.Yes?

Gerry-Bevers

Thanks.
I believe Japan will act just as before whether the US passes the resolution or not. The US is too important an ally to tit-for-tat.
And I understand the Honda is doing for his constituents.
It is just that some undigested feelings remain. Probably it might be like something you feel when you see the teacher you have highly respected and trusted doing a damn thing to you.

Thank you for the link. That is an interesting book. Yes I have read Dowers’ books, embracing the defeat and the war without mercy. They are interesting books.

Japan issued apology and set up the fund.

Japan acknowledged she was wrong and apologized.

Oh course, if Abe had just stopped blabbering in the first place, it would have become this big again. Questioning the extent to which coercion was applied toward ALL of the comfort women is certainly something most people can’t get over.

I believe no one would accept an “apology” that comes after years of denial. Also, setting up a fund in the name of “apology” does nothing but fan the flames.

And as is ofen the case with other Korean people I talked with on the Internet, it seems he feel no need for Korea to acknowledge its dark past.Yes?

I believe that Korea also has to face its past, which is slowly but painfully going on at the moment. Don’t think that we aren’t doing anything just because you aren’t here.

Oh course, if Abe had just stopped blabbering in the first place

Abe didn’t blabber, Onishi of NYT did.

I believe no one would accept an “apology” that comes after years of denial.I believe no one would accept an “apology” that comes after years of denial.

So you just prove my point. Korea is demanding apology he has no intention to accept.

I believe that Korea also has to face its past, which is slowly but painfully going on at the moment. Don’t think that we aren’t doing anything just because you aren’t here.

Oh my bad, I am sorry, that is a good news.
Why is it we don’t hear it on the media and on the Internet?

Why is it we don’t hear it on the media and on the Internet?

Probably because the anti-Japanese issues puts such news in the shadows, sort of like the events of Africa being overlooked while news in Europe/Us/East Asia are on the front page.

Abe didn’t blabber, Onishi of NYT did.

I know enough Japanese to know what Abe said, and it wasn’t flattering. The translation did heighten the situation, however.

Probably because the anti-Japanese issues puts such news in the shadows

To be exact, the culture of the hatred surpass the being self critical No?

It is beyond my understanding why they can not focus on more pressing issue like North Korean women in China and South Korean women victimized by Korean society rather than the incident that happened more than 60 years ago, and regardless of the fact that the ex-comfort women in question have remedy some way from Korean government and Japanese government.

I know enough Japanese to know what Abe said, and it wasn’t flattering. The translation did heighten the situation, however.

What is so upsetting about PM telling the historical truth in response to the question a Diet member asked in a Japanese Diet?

The reaction from people I talked with on the Korean blogshpher was surprising; most of them didn’t know Korean people were involved in “deceiving and forcing” which Korea has been accusing. And they didn’t know most of the brokers were Koreans.
I guess it was upsetting because it upset Korean myth.

To be exact, the culture of the hatred surpass the being self critical No?

A strong way of saying it, but that’s the basic outline. I personally feel that China is a bigger issue, but the hotheads on both sides are constantly bringing this up.

General Tiger
Thank you. I respect the you argue.

I’m personally a pro-Japanese, ultra-pan-nationalist that believes the nations which originated from the Baikal area needs to help each other.

But short term history seems to always derail everything.

Japan and Korea have so many similarities that we are often disillusioned to find out the differences.
But I don’t believe the origin somehow should influence politics.
I have a feeling that Japan belong to a different civilization from Korea.
And in terms of geopolitical position, Japan should go with Australia, India, Indonesia, Taiwan etc. And I also have a feeling that Korea belong to Chinese sphere. After all, Japan and Korea had been relatively doing well when Korea was under the influence of China. Korean has been considered a choke point, and it still is, but Korean as strong as it is now, I think strategists need to reexamine Korea’s geopolitical position.

All countries which ever used comfort woman station must express apology if Japan should apologize again.
Mr Kohno expressed apology to comfort women though there was no evidence of coercion then.
Now, Korea is claiming apology and compensation with basing the apology Mr Kohno axpressed as only evidence of coercion.
It is no logic.
On the other hand , what Korea did during Vietnam war.
Korean army did what they say Japanese army did during WW2.
They massacred 300,000 Vietnamese and raped numbers of Vietnamese women so there are 10,000 half-bloods with Koreans.
Did Korea compensate? No. Did she apologize? No.
Proud Vietnam is not demanding neither of them as bygone incident though most of us are contemporary.
There is apparent contrast between these 2 countries which was ever devided similarly.

BTW I noticed japandit didn’t quote some parts for some reason.

Since the greater part of Tokyo had been incinerated in the air raids, initially there were not many areas where comfort facilities could be provided. In the latter part of September, Do. Yosano Mitsuru, the head of the municipal government’s hygiene department was summoned by GHQ and asked to help apportion the prostitutes into separate districts to be reserved for use by U.S.
Officers, white enlisted men and black enlisted men. Inially, women designated for use by black soldiers were said to have been horrified—until they discovered that many black GIs treated them more kindly than the white did. ….
Such “recreation and amusement” center expanded rapidly in Tokyo—there were soon thirty-three by one count—-and spread almost as quickly to some twenty other cities. Not surprisingly, they proved popular among U.S. servicemen. They were , among other things,inexpensive. The prices for a short visit with an R.A.A prostitutes was 15yen, or one dollar—about the same as half as a pack of cigarettes on the Japanese market. Two or three times that amount purchased an entire night of personal diplomacy. Although these services did not prevent rape and assault*, the incidence of rape remained relatively low given the huge size of the occupation force….

page 131

According to one calculation, the number of rapes and assaults on Japanese women amounted to around 40 daily while R.A.A. was in operation and then rose an average of 330 a day after it was terminated in early 1946.

page 579

I believe there must have been several cases in which Japanese officers were involved in taking Korean women forcibly into brothels. The problem is that Korean people tend to exaggerate everything and to pick out the fractions of facts arbitrarily. When they find a bad apple in a box, they assume without a second thougt that all the apples in the box are bad. We can see no sincerity in their attitudes toward historical facts. At least, they mustn’t forget the fact that Korea were full of ’spontaneous’ prostitutes at the time. They mustn’t forget the fact that Japanese government made efforts to crack down on forcible gathering of prostitutes. Japanese goverment can only make appologies for unexaggerated facts.

Progress…
“We didn’t do it.”
“It’s not us, it was you, really; you didn’t know?”
“You did it too.”
“And, you’re still doing it.”
“Oh…oh…oh…you’re doing it there too.”
And the latest…
“It happened to us, but see, we didn’t complain.”(Hmmm…we’re better than you?)

kjeff
There is no progress on Korean side.

We did it we apologize.

That is not apology.

You did it too.You have been doing it.
Why don’t you help women

We didn’t do it.You are holocaust denier. Apologize!!!

You never get away with your nationalistic view point, and can not think the problem in
view of vicims.

Sad.

ponta,
If you read any of my comments on this matter, you’ll see that I’ve never advocated for more apology. Above was just an observation as below is a reflection.
A ‘conversation’ between me and my wife…
She: Blablabla…blablablablabla…blablabla!!!
Me : No…blablabla…no…
She: Blablablabla…blablabla…blabla!!!
Me : I’m sorry…
She: Blabla…blablabla…
Me : I’m sorry, but blablabla…
She: What are you sorry for?
Me : Umm…Urgh…Ummm…
She: Blablabla!!!
Me : How many times do want me to say sorry???

kjeff

I didn’t say you were demanding more apology.

You said your wife was born and raised in Korea, didn’t you?

Is that a cultural thing?

Japanese wife would slap you in the face, that would be all.(just kidding)

Ponta:

Can I ask a request? What was the Japanese for this sentence in the Kono statement: sincerely apologizes and (expresses its] remorse to all those, irrespective of place of origin, who suffered immeasurable pain and incurable psychological wounds”.

政府は、この機会に、改めて、その出身地のいかんを問わず、いわゆる従軍慰安婦として数多の苦痛を経験され、心身にわたり癒しがたい傷を負われたすべての方々に対し心からお詫びと反省の気持ちを申し上げる。

I think this is the one.

I was suprised to see that this is on the second page of YouTube’s most viewed of today’s. Lesson learned: Money can’t buy you love. $30 billions to China alone; sure want that money back if I were you. Kind of sad really, hundreds of billions(probably) spent across Asia, and all you got to show for is… (drum roll) Singapore.

All these issues, US’s comfort women or Australia’s Korean prostitutes, are all aimed to downplay Japan’s comfort women system in WWII.

Well,will the Congress pass the Honda’s bill or not?
I don’t know.

But PM Abe did something spectacular(?), so now in Washington where people are mostly preoccupied with the Iraq for a while(4 years? ) so that people wouldn’t really care about other country than Iraq, this historical issues between Japan and east asian countries are brought attentions to.
The real issue is that some japanese right wingers including PM Abe, seem to start to dismiss even the Tokyo war crime tribunal as unjust.
And now some people in Washinton seem to believe that it is necessary to send Tokyo a warning signal to the uprising revisionist
in a very mild way like passing a non- binding resolution for the comfort women.

Will it be finally passed this year?
I don’t know.
But I felt that many people in Washinton seem to start to care about the seriousness of japanese rising nationalism.

But I felt that many people in Washinton seem to start to care about the seriousness of japanese rising nationalism.

The western media has been talking about “rising Japanese nationalism” for years. Where is this “rising Japanese nationalism” and why is it that western journalists are the only ones that seem to be able to see it?

But I felt that many people in Washinton seem to start to care about the seriousness of japanese rising nationalism.

I start to believe that Washinton really does not care about the comfort women issue.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2007/04/20070427-6.html

No questions were asked about comfort women at the press conference except the one asked by a Japanese leftist jounalists.
http://tech.heteml.jp/2007/04/post_944.html
And in response to that, Bush replied,

The comfort women issue is a regrettable chapter in the history of the world, and I accept the Prime Minister’s apology. I thought it was very — I thought his statements — Kono’s statement, as well as statements here in the United States were very straightforward and from his heart. And I’m looking forward to working with this man to lead our nations forward. And that’s what we spent time discussing today.

Kjeff

Money can’t buy you love.

I am looking forward to hearing a story again about your wife from you.

matt,
at least Japan’s nationalism or revisionism seems to be rising among the group that’s in power in Japan. There were some japanese politicians including PM Abe, who express their controversial views.

ponta,
I don’t think Bush want to make a big deal out of this comfort women issue. But I think the general atmosphere in washington is that Japan is not dealing this comfort women issue properly.

Even the weekly standard criticized PM Abe for his foolish statement and discussed japan’s revisionism and new foreign policy.
And the advice given by the Weekly Standard is basically to shut up and not to sugarcoat the comfort women issue.

Also the Foreign Policy also discussed the comfort women issue in which, I think, it presents a valuable insight to this comfort women issue for the japanese rightwingers. Let me just quote.

It(comfort women issue)’s the worst possible issue for Japan. They can’t say anything that seems as though it’s defending the awful actions of the Japanese government during its militarist period, and expect that anybody anywhere is going to be sympathetic. Too many of the conservatives in Japan have convinced themselves that it’s just what they call the “left-wing American media” that is playing up this issue for its own purposes, without saying what those purposes are. So there’s a lot of self-delusion going on here about how bad this is for Japan’s image.

stannn
True.The media played up this issue widely, but I think there is still another perspective on it:politics may be moving in another dimension the media is missing

Anpontan has given a great insight on this matter.
Something different is going on in real politics.

Notice your FP article also notes;

the Chinese strategy has changed. They’re trying to avoid this history issue getting in the way of the relationship. Plus, it’s difficult to have big problems with Japan and not, in some way or another, get caught up in problems with the United States. They want to focus on their internal development, not be distracted by problems in their external relations.

Sure enough, Korea and some media will keep ranting; that is okay, that is what they’ve been doing and that is what they will be doing and that is their business, I think I should pay more attention to what is going on behind the scene and how the US Japan alliance will develop. That is really what matters.
When the mainstream politicians of the nation give up being politicians and pretend to be historians, they are not just lousy historian, but the politics of the nation will surely stagnate.
.

More Corean comfort women get arrested.

Ponta,
Thanks for the link to Anpontan’s writings.
It is helpful to understand japanese rightwinger’s mindset. (Can I call him rightwinger? or conservative?)

When the mainstream politicians of the nation give up being politicians and pretend to be historians, they are not just lousy historian, but the politics of the nation will surely stagnate.
.

I am not so sure who you mean here.
Is it PM Abe and young politicians in LDP?
or Congressman Honda and those who support him in Congress?

I am not so sure who you mean here.
Is it PM Abe and young politicians in LDP?
or Congressman Honda and those who support him in Congress?

I thought Abe is too meddled with “Patriotism”.
Foreign dispatches made an interesting analysis before.
But I reserve the judgement now. As I said, what really matters is how the US-Japan alliance will develop, as long as he is moving in the right direction, that is all we need. And the issue of comfort women is relative small;for, Abe has made it clear from the beginning, from the time he took office, that he stood by Kono’s statement. And Japan has done her due on this issue.
The opposition party that want to use this issue, any issue to topple the cabinet in power, whatever measures .
Thanks to Onishi’s successive and exclusive bashing on Japan, he is now notorious for it.
I think people will realize what is real issue.
There are Japanese politicians who care about
historical issue. But I think they know that it is not Japan’s priority.
When I made the statement above, what I had in mind was Korean politicians like Roh.
I am a bit surprised he didn’t come to your mind.
Is it so difficult to be critical about brethren?

Ponta,
Well, at least for the current comfort women issue, not Roh, but PM Abe and congressman Honda are the ones who come to my mind first.
Anyway, I agree with you that if politicians pretend to be historians, they rather tend to be just lousy historians because they have hidden political agenda and tend to be biased therefore lacking pursuasion (in this sense, Roh should also be criticized). politicians should work on other priorities and let the historians do their jobs.