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An Yong-bok: “We arrived at Oki’s Matsushima….”?

March 25th, 2007 . by Gerry-Bevers

The following is a section of a 1696 Japanese document (元祿九丙子年朝鮮舟着岸一卷之覺書) talking about Korean fisherman An Yong-bok’s visit to Japan to complain about Japanese fishing at Ulleungdo. My translation of a Korean translation follows the document:

 

Thirteen ships carrying about nine, ten, eleven, twelve~thirteen, and fifteen people per ship went to Takeshima (Ulleungdo). When asked the number of people, he could not answer at all.

He said of the thirteen ships, twelve went to Takeshima (Ulleungdo) to gather brown seaweed, abalone, and to harvest bamboo. He said there was not much abalone this year.

According to An Yong-bok, “The eleven people in our boat planned to go to Houki Distict to talk with the Houki magistrate (島取 伯耆守). We got a favorable wind and came here and have been gradually trying to make our way to Houki. We left Takeshima (Ulleungdo) on May 15 and arrived at Matsushima (probably Ulleungdo’s neighboring island of Jukdo) on the same day. On the 16th, we left Matsushima and arrived on the coast of the western village (西村) of Oki’s Matsushima (隱岐松嶋) on the 18th. On the 20th, he said they entered the cove of 大久 village (大久村). He said that the beach of the western village was too rough, so they entered the cove of the central village. On the next day, the 19th, he said they left and arrived that evening at 大久 village (大久村) beach in Port Gayoi, where they tied up their boat. On the 20th, he said they went to 大久 village (大久村).

Link to document and the rest of An’s testimony

Notice that An Yong-bok mentioned two Matsushimas (松島). The first Matsushima was close enough to Ulleungdo that An and his party got there in less than one day. However, it took Ah and his party two days and two nights to get to the other Matsushima, which he referred to as “Oki’s Matsushima.”

I cannot read that chicken scratch on the Japanese document, so could someone please confirm for me that it does say “Oki’s Matsushima (隱岐松嶋)”?

Anyway, now let’s compare the above story with the one An Yong-bok told Korean authorities:

An Yong-bok, a resident of Dongrae in Gyeongsang Province, went to Ulsan to visit his sick mother. There he met the monk Noi-hyeon and others, who he told about his trip to Ulleungdo, which he said was an island with an abundance of products. Noi-hyeon and his party listened to the story and decided to go to Ulleungdo with Yeonghae resident Yu Il-bu and his party.

Many Japanese ships were at the island, and the people in the party were afraid to approach them, but An Yong-bok yelled in a thundering voice, “Ulleungdo is our territory. What are you Japanese doing crossing over our border? I am going to capture you.”

At this the Japapanese answered, “We are residents of Matsushima (松島) and come here sometimes to catch fish. That is all. We were just getting ready to return.”

Then An Yong-bok said, Matsushima is Jasando (Usando), which is also our country’s land. How can you be living there?”

The next morning they got in their boat and sailed to Jasando, where they found Japanese boiling fish in a big pot. An Yong-bok hit the pot with a stick and broke it and yelled at them in a loud voice. The Japanese gathered their pots together loaded them on their boat and ran away. Then An Yong-bok and his party got in their boat and chased after them, but they met a wind and drifted to Oki Island. The head of Oki Island came and asked why they had come there.

[An said] said, “Last year when I came here, there is a letter written by the Gwanbaek (觀白 – an aide to the shogun) saying that both Ulleungdo and Jasando are Joseon territory. But the promise has not been completely kept. Why are you now again trespassing? Please relay this to Houki.”

The head of Oki Island said he comunicated this to Houki, but even after a long time there was no answer. He got angry, got on his boat, and headed to Houki.

Notice that the two stories do not match up. For example, in the story he told the Japanese he did not mention anything about a confrontation with Japanese fisherman on Matsushima. Also, in the story he told the Japanese, he said he left Matsushima the following morning after his arrival, but in his story to Korean officials, he said he chased after the Japanese immediately.

I think the story he told the Japanese was the real story for a few reasons. First, why would An and his party give the Japanese time to gather their things together and load them on their boat before chasing after them? That does not make sense. Wouldn’t it have been easier to just grab them while they had the chance? Also, the story about drifting to Oki after pursuing the Japanese fisherman sounds very fishy. An Yong-bok had obviously planned to sail to Japan before leaving Korea since he had prepared the clothing and other articles needed to fake his being a Joseon government official. And is it just a coincidence that An landed on “Oki’s Matsushima,” which is the name of the island he say the Japanese fisherman said they were from? I think An made up the story about the Japanese fishermen and his drifting to Japan to keep from getting in trouble with Korean authorities.

In the same interview with the Japanese officials, Ah said that Ulleungdo was thirty ri (120 kilometers) from the Korean mainland and fifty ri (200 kilometers) from Matsushima. Since the Korean mainland is actually about 140 ri from Ulleungdo and Liancourt Rocks (Dokdo) is only 92 ri, the Matsushima An was referring to was obviously not “Dokdo.” Therefore, I think the Matsushima he was referring to was “Oki’s Matsushima,” which is number 8 on the following map:

Can anyone give me some information on Oki’s Matsushima? For example, could someone tell me the size of the island? I am wondering if it is about one-third the size of Ulleungdo, which would match up with other statements. Also, could someone give me the Japanese names for some of the placenames mentioned above, specifically 大久村?

Update: There appears to have been a mistyping in the Korean translation of the Japanese document. Instead of “Oki’s Matsushima” (隱岐松嶋), the document seems to have said only “Oki Island” (隠岐島).


292 Responses to “An Yong-bok: “We arrived at Oki’s Matsushima….”?”

  1. comment number 1 by: Gerry-Bevers

    The following is an October 1, 1793 entry from Korea’s “Ilseongrok” (일성록). The entry seems to be saying that another name for Ulleungdo’s neighboring island is “Songdo” (蔚陵外島其名松島). Could someone please confirm this? Here is the full entry:

    召見輪對官于熙政堂

    禮曹正郞 李福休曰兩昏朝私家設享不合於禮博採衆議立廟享祀似好矣予曰曠古未行之典何可輕議乎福休曰臣按本曹謄錄蔚陵外島其名松島卽古于山國也新羅智證王時異斯夫以木獅子恐㥘島人而受降今若立碑於松島述異斯夫舊蹟則其爲我國土地可以憑驗矣

    Link to Source

  2. comment number 2 by: ponta

    I am not saying that the document prove that
    Japan gave up the island to Korea but rather saying that Japanese historical arguments are invalidated.

    As I understand it, Japanese claim is that Japan had had effective controlo over Dokdo/takeshima since Edo period, and/or since 1905 at the latest.
    That Japan was confused about the island due
    to western maps, and due to the radical regime change at the specific period does not invalidate Japan’s historical claim to the territory.
    Korea was not confused about Dokdo/takeshima:
    Korea governmet didn’t know it at all.

  3. comment number 3 by: hanmaumy

    위 코멘트를 마지막으로 당분간 이곳에 오지 않으려고 했습니다. 그러나 Gerry-Bevers씨의 이 질문만은 대답을 하고 나가죠. 한글로 코멘트합니다.
    이 때가 1793년입니다.

    臣按本曹謄錄蔚陵外島其名松島卽古于山國也
    신이 살펴보건대 본 예조등록에 울릉도의 외도인 송도라고하는 섬은 고 우산국의 영토였습니다.

    그럼, 이와 유사한 시기의 조선의 기록을 보죠.

    강계고(疆界考, 18세기 중엽)
    愚按輿地志云 一說于山鬱陵本一島 而考諸圖志二島也 一則倭所謂松島 而盖二島 俱是于山國也

    동국문헌비고(東國文獻備考,1770)
    輿地志云 鬱陵于山皆于山國地, 于山則倭所謂松島也

    만기요람(萬機要覽, 1808)
    輿地志云 鬱陵于山皆于山國地, 于山則倭所謂松島也

    해동역사지리고(海東繹史地理考, 1823)
    文獻備考云 鬱陵于山皆于山國地 于山島卽倭所謂松島也

    이 기록과 대조하면, 일성록에서의 松島가 Dokdo라는 사실이 분명히 나오지 않습니까? 이 때 조선에서는 松島가 현재의 Dokdo이며, 조선에서의 명칭은 于山島라는 인식이 널리 퍼져 있었습니다.

    일성록의 松島는 Dokdo가 되는 것이죠.

    이렇게 동시기의 자료와 대조함으로써 그 신뢰성을 확보하게 되는 겁니다.

  4. comment number 4 by: toadface

    Gerry, where do you arrive at the conclusion that the Koreans told the Japanese that there was an island next to Ulleungdo called Songdo? The document says nothing of the sort and I have seen no maps from either Koreans or Japanese maps or documents that show a neighbour island of Ulleungdo called Songdo. Again you ignoring all of the maps of this era that show Dokdo as Songdo and playing a flimsy game of connect the dots with a confused conversation that took place a decade later. This is not a very academic approach.

    Nigelboy, the Japanese stated themselves in some documents that Usando was Matsushima and so did the Koreans. That being said, what Usando in these records is not really important. From these documents we know the Japanese territorial perceptions of this region excluded Dokdo from their land. If nobody is buying Anyongboks testimony, well the Japanese did when they investigated Ulleungdo in the late 1870’s. Some of the Japanese of the day regarded Usando as Matsushima and as part of Chosun.

    NIgelboy, the Japanese incorporated Dokdo for military reasons this is clear. Why did they have to? Well for one there were many other powers in the East Sea besides Japan. If another country had laid claim to Dokdo and been friendly to Russia they too could have installed facilities on Dokdo and used the island. They too could have run telegraph cables to Vladivostok. In short, if any ally of Russia had laid claim to Liancourt the Japanese would have a problem.

    Don’t forget this fact in 1941 when WWII heated up and Japan became involved Japan again annexed Dokdo. In 1941 Dokdo was declared off-limits to all civilians because the area was a still considered a military base.

    You say the Russo~Japanese War is not related. I and other experts (some Japanese) disagree with you. You harp on Japan’s cognizance of Dokdo. Yes the Japanese have records about Dokdo dating back to about 1618. So why don’t you enlighten us as to why the Japanese waited almost 300 years to “incorporate” the island. Why did they wait to the hieght of the Japanese~Russian War to take Dokdo? Why did the Navy survey the island for watchtowers and radio towers t재 months before NIgelboby?

    Don’t treat the readers on this forum as fools and try to put down this rubbish that the Japanese Navy surveyed Dokdo in November 20th 1904 to find the most strategic location to wack seals Nigelboy, that’s the least plausible theory here.

    Japan used Nakai Yozaburos request to lease the island as an excuse to annex the island. Japan was very familiar with international law Nigelboy. They had long been using the colonial era’s international law to take over adjacent territories such as Hokkaido, Ogasarawa (Bonin Islands), Taiwan, the Kuriles and Marcus Island.

    NIgel asks. “Why did the Japanese Navy just march in and annex Dokdo? Nigleboy at this point in history the Japanese were NOT the “Boss of Asia” Five years earlier the Japanese had defeated the Chinese and taken large areas of land. The Europeans marched in and demanded Japan give back these territories and then carved it up for themselves.(aka.Triple Intervention) Thus before the foreign treaties from mid~late 1905 Japan was very wary not to agitate other western powers over her policies in Korea. It is not likely Japan would have established a full protectorate over Korea without approval of the west at this time.
    http://www.dokdo-takeshima.com/dokdo-historical-perspective.html

    Nigelboy I don’t know why you still are concerned over the “other island” identity on this 1877 document as I’ve shown here, no Shimane Prefecture Maps after 1877 and before 1905 show Ulleungdo or Dokdo. Stann above is right it doesn’t make sense that the Japanese would issue this documents and leave the identity so ambiguous. Also I say, it the “other island” is one of Ulleugdo’s nieghbour island why would they have to inquire as to the status of a tiny rock only two kms from Ulleungdo…….isn’t the rock kind of a “gimmie”?

    Hanmuamy, here is a Japanese Naval document. The date appears to be the same as the accompanying map from January 1st 1905. This was before the Japanese government announced the inclusion of Dokdo. However the name Takeshima is written above Liancourt Rocks. How could the Japanese Navy have known that Liancourt Rocks would be known as Takeshima if it had not been announced by the government yet? Is this proof the Japanese Navy somehow was privy to or involved with the decision making process of Dokdo’s annexation?
    http://www.dokdo-takeshima.com/warzonetext2.jpg
    Here is the map
    http://www.dokdo-takeshima.com/warzonemap2.jpg

  5. comment number 5 by: hanmaumy

    Gerry-Bevers!
    저는 다시 한번 말씀드리지만, 당신에게는 나쁜 감정이 없습니다. 또, 제가 Dokdo를 사랑하기에 독도에 관심을 가져 주시는 당신의 태도에 일면 감사드립니다.
    그러나, 너무 무리하게 일본인의 입장에서 객관성을 잃은 당신의 태도에 자꾸 실망하게 되네요.
    제 말에 기분이 나쁘셨다면 사과드립니다.
    그러나, 자신의 행위에 대한 모든 책임은 자신에게 있습니다. 당신은 지금 너무도 터무니없는 주장을 계속해서 하고 있어요.
    獨島라는 명칭조차도 인정을 하지 않는다면, 그건 독도 연구가로서의 자질을 잃었다는 것입니다. 당시 대한제국의 거리에 대한 관념을 전혀 고려하지 않은 어리석은 주장이 되는 겁니다. 하지만, 거리에 대한 관념을 메이지기의 일본에 적용시킬 경우는 사정이 달라집니다. 이때 일본은 서양의 지리적 지식과 기술을 토대로 거의 정확한 인식을 지니고 있었어요.
    조선과 일본의 이 당시의 이런 정황을 참조해 역사를 인식하는 것은 너무도 기본적인 태도입니다. 조선의 지도를 보세요. 당신이 우산도의 위치만을 문제삼을 수가 없습니다. 조선에서 그린 일본도를 봤습니까? 당신처럼 판단을 한다면, 조선의 모든 지명을 부정해야 합니다. 일본의 고지도를 봤어요? 가상의 영토가 그려져 있어요. 그 위치또한 제각각입니다. 그럼, 당신은 그 지도에서의 지명을 모두 부정할 겁니까?
    당신은 지금 무조건적으로 일본에 유리하게 자료를 마음대로 왜곡하고 있지 않습니다. 당시의 정황을 고려하지 않고 있고, 일본 측에서 독도를 포기한 기록 등은 애써 외면하고 있어요. 한마디로 객관성을 잃은 것이죠. 토론을 하면서 잠시 이런 태도는 그 위력을 발휘할 수도 있어요. 하지만, 당신의 지금 모습처럼 그 도를 넘는다면, 아무도 당신의 주장에 귀를 기울여 주지 않습니다.
    이상입니다.
    저때문에 기분 상해하지 마시고 오늘도, 내일도 좋은 하루 되십시요.

  6. comment number 6 by: Gerry-Bevers

    Hanmaumy,

    Can’t you see what happened as a result of An Yong-bok’s statement, “Matsushima (Songdo) is Usando”? Regardless of whether An Yong-bok was referring to Dokdo or to Ulleungdo’s neighboring island of Jukdo, the Joseon (Korean) government assumed he was referring to Ulleungo’s neighboring island of Jukdo, which was called “Usando” at the time. An Yong-bok’s statement set off a chain of events that eventually had Koreans, themselves, using “Songdo” (Matsushima) to refer to Ulleungdo’s neighboring island of Jukdo. The finale came in 1882 when King Kojong, himself, said that Ulleungdo’s neighboring island of Jukdo was also called “Songdo.”

    By the way, I am a white American, and I am thinking for myself. I am not taking anyone’s side. I am simply looking at the evidence in regard to the Dokdo/Takeshima dispute and coming to a different conclusion than you are.

    In regard to “Usando being Japan’s Matsushima (Songdo),” I suggest you compare the statements you listed with Korean maps for the same time periods.

  7. comment number 7 by: toadface

    BTW Gerry Bevers, can you hook me up with some hot Russian, Japanese or Korean girls??

    http://occidentalism.com/

    WTF???????

  8. comment number 8 by: pacifist

    hanmaumy,
    .
    Seokdo is not Dokdo because of the following reasons:
    .
    1) The Great Korean Empire (1897-1910) didn’t recognise Dokdo as their territory, as the 大韓全図 indicated. Ulleungdo was their east boundary.
    .
    2) The word “Dokdo” appeared in documents first in 1903 or 1904. The 1900 ordinance couldn’t include the “future word”.
    .
    3) The word “Dokdo” was a kind of a slang word among the Korean fishermen who were hired by Japanese. It is unreasonable to use such a slang in the official ardinance.
    .
    And hanmaumy,do you think that the Seokdo in the following sentence “本郡草島石島所在牧馬九十二匹數爻는” is the same Seokdo in the ordinance? If so, Seokdo can’t be Dokdo because the sentence says the there are 92 horses are there on the two islands 草島 and Seokdo.
    .
    No horses can’t be raised in Dokdo.

  9. comment number 9 by: Gerry-Bevers

    Toadface wrote:

    Gerry, where do you arrive at the conclusion that the Koreans told the Japanese that there was an island next to Ulleungdo called Songdo?

    Here is the translation of the 1870 Japanese document:

    How Takeshima & Matsushima Became Part of Chosun

    Matsushima (Songdo) is a neighboring island of Takeshima (Ulleungdo). We have no previous records of Matsushima. In regard to Takeshima, after the Genroku years (1688 – 1704), Chosun (Korea) sent people there to live for awhile, but now, as before, it is uninhabited. It produces bamboo and also reeds thicker than bamboo. Ginseng and other products also grow naturally. We have also heard that there is an abundance of marine products.

    In 1869, the Japanese were in Korea to gather information about the country. If the Koreans did not tell them that Ulleungdo had a neighboring island called “Songdo” (Matsushima), then who did? It was not the Japanese because they said they had never heard of it before. It had to be the Koreans.

    It was Koreans who were claiming that Songdo (Matsushima) was Usando, so you have to look at Korean maps to determine where Usando was, not Japanese maps, and Korean maps showed that Usando was Ulleungdo’s neighboring island of Jukdo, which is about 2.2 kilometers off of Ulleungdo’s east shore.

    By the way, you will have to ask someone else to help you find a Russian woman because that Gerry Bevers is not me.

  10. comment number 10 by: hanmaumy

    Gerry-Bevers!
    1. 왜 18세기 기록과 19세기 말의 기록을 대조를 합니까?
    안용복의 활동으로 조선에서는 독도에 대한 인식이 뚜렷해 있었어요. 그러나, 그 후 다시 그 지리적 인식이 희미해 졌죠. 1882년 고종은 비교적 정확히 울릉도 주위의 섬에 대해서 인식하고 있었어요.

    고종실록의 기록을 보죠. 국역본만 싣겠습니다.

    우산도(芋山島)라고도 하고 송죽도(松竹島)라고도 하는데 다 《동국여지승람(東國輿地勝覽)》에 실려있다. 그리고 또 혹은 송도(松島)·죽도(竹島)라고도 하는데 우산도(芋山島)와 함께 이 세 섬을 통칭 울릉도(鬱陵島)라고 하였다.

    승정원일기의 기록을 보죠.

    왕께서 가로되, 혹은 칭하기를 우산도(芋山島)라하고 혹은 칭하기를 송죽도(松竹島)라 하는 것은 모두 ‘동국여지승람’에 기록되어 있는 것이다. 또한 송죽도(松竹島)라고 칭하는데 우산도(芋山島)와 더불어 3섬이 되고, 모두 ‘울릉도’라고 통칭하기도 한다.

    우선, 이 발언으로 고종은 울릉도 주위의 섬명칭에 대해서 잘 알지 못하고 있음을 파악할 수 있습니다. 울릉도 주위에 2섬이 있다는 것밖에 알지 못했어요. 그럼, 이 기록을 가지고 송죽도가 무슨 섬이고, 송도가 무슨 섬이라고 단정을 하는 것은 무리가 따른다는 생각을 해 본 일이 없습니까?

    예를 들어 이규원은 于山島가 울릉도라고 했습니다.
    그럼, 그의 말대로 우산도가 울릉도였습니까? 아니잖아요. 이규원은 울릉도에 실제로 검찰을 나가서 이건 자신이 잘못 알았다는 기록을 합니다.

    또, 그의 일기에서 죽도와 우산도를 울릉도 주민들은 우리 영토로 당연하게 생각하고 있다는 기록을 남깁니다.

    2. 울릉도 근방의 섬이라는 구절을 자꾸 물고 늘어지셔서 그에 대해서 한마디 합니다.

    일본의 기록에 이런 기록이 있어요.
    竹島之內松島 ; 오오야·무라까와 두 가문이 서로 주고받은 서신에 나오는 대목입니다.
    문자대로만 파악할 경우, 이걸 어떻게 설명할 겁니까?
    지도를 보면 울릉도는 항상 우산도와 하나로 다루어집니다. 따라서 한국이나 일본이나 바로 근접해 있는 섬으로 다루었던 거죠.

    Gerry-Bevers!
    제가 지금 한 두시간은 시간이 있습니다. 토론에 응해 드릴게요.
    대신 제 의견을 마음대로 표출하기 위해서 한글로만 코멘트 합니다.

  11. comment number 11 by: hanmaumy

    Gerry-Bevers!
    松竹于山等 島
    자 이규원의 검찰일기에서 이 구문을 당신은 송죽도와 우산도로 해석을 합니다.
    그러나 이건 크게 잘못된 해석이죠. 물론 검찰을 떠나기 전, 고종황제가 송죽도와 우산도라는 명칭을 거론했습니다. 그러나 검찰을 진행하면서 그가 그린 지도에는 송죽도라는 명칭은 보이지 않고, 죽도 라고 합니다.
    그럼, 마땅히 위 문구는 송도와 죽도, 그리고 우산도 라고 해석을 하는 것이 맞죠.
    고종과 이규원은 검찰을 떠나기 전에 울릉도 주위의 섬에 대해서 이야기를 나눕니다. 그러나 그 대화내용은 정확하지 않았어요. 그런데, 그 대화내용을 토대로 해서 울릉도와 그 주위 섬에 대해서 판단을 한다는 것은 굉장히 무리예요. 그렇게 생각하지 않습니까?
    무엇보다도 조선후기의 지도를 보면, 이규원이 검찰을 다녀온 후 크게 바로 잡힙니다.
    그럼, 혼동을 한 것이 조선후기 울릉도와 독도에 대한 진상이라고 할 수 있습니까?

  12. comment number 12 by: hanmaumy

    다음으로 그의 일기에 나오는 관음도는 분명, 기록에도 지도에도 島項이라고 기록하고 있어요.
    그런데, Gerry-Bevers는 엉뚱하게도 于山島가 島項이라고 합니다.
    만일 기록이나 지도에 한 곳에만 관음도의 이름이 그 명칭으로 나왔다면, 당신이 말한 것처럼 상상할 충분한 근거가 됩니다. 그러나, 기록과 지도에 관음도가 도항이라는 명칭으로 기록되어 있는데, 어떻게 당신처럼 그의 일기에서의 于山島가 島項이라고 할 수 있습니까? 이건 너무 터니없어요.

  13. comment number 13 by: hanmaumy

    Gerry-Bevers!
    없습니까?^^;;
    울릉도 검찰중에 이규원이 말하는 松島는 어떤 섬이예요?
    왜인들이 울릉도를 칭해 松島라 한다는 것을 알게 됩니다. 그럼, 松竹于山等 島에서 그가 말하는 松島는 울릉도로 봐야죠. 그런데, 당신은 이전 고종황제와 이규원의 대화내용을 근거로 이 구절을 송죽도와 우산도로 해석을 하고 있습니다. 이건 아니죠.
    왜 그렇게 합리적인 사람이 이런 바보 해석을 하죠?
    뭐, 한문으로 기록되어 있다고 해서 아무렇게나 해석이 가능한 것은 아닙니다. 당신은 뭔가 큰 착각을 하고 있어요.
    Gerry-Bevers!
    없으면 저도 나갑니다.

  14. comment number 14 by: Matt

    BTW Gerry Bevers, can you hook me up with some hot Russian, Japanese or Korean girls??

    http://occidentalism.com/

    WTF???????

    Toadface, occidentalism.com is nothing to do with us. It is quite obvious that site is a kind of advertising trap, and it is trying to usurp search words related to the word ‘occidentalism’, like Gerry Bevers’ name.

  15. comment number 15 by: hanmaumy

    이규원의 일기는 이렇게 정리하시면 틀림이 없어요.
    1. 松竹島라는 섬은 竹島로 판명이 됐습니다.

    2. 울릉도로 알았던 于山島라는 섬이 있었습니다.

    3. 松島라는 명칭은 일본인이 울릉도를 부르는 이름이었습니다.

    4. 그 이전 한국기록에 등장하지 않던 島項이라는 섬이 있었습니다. 그 섬이 바로 관음도죠.

    자 여기서 于山島는 어느 섬입니까? 于山島는 항상 울릉도의 부속섬으로서 거론이 되었던 섬입니다. 그럼 죽도라는 섬명칭이 등장한 상황에서 이 섬은 어디입니까?
    답은 Dokdo라는 결과밖에 나올 수가 없어요.

    왜 그렇게 말도 안되는 소리를 자꾸 하십니까?
    만일 당신이 여기서의 于山島가 島項이라고 한다면 그 모순이 지적되지 않을 수가 없어요.
    당신도 알듯이 한국기록에는 울릉도와 더불어 우산도가 거론되는데, 왜 그 작은 섬을 지도와 기록에 표시를 합니까? 독도와 Chukdo를 놔두고…….
    왜 그의 일기와 지도에 관음도는 우산도가 아니라 島項이라는 이름으로 나옵니까?

  16. comment number 16 by: hanmaumy

    Gerry-Bevers!
    당신의 주장은 이곳 극우 일본인한테만 환영을 받지 독도에 대해서 조금이라도 알고 있는 사람 눈에는 너무도 황당한 주장으로 비춰집니다. 이 점을 당신이 아실지 모르겠어요. 막상 토론에 응한다고 하면, 항상 사라지시면서 무슨 독도에 대한 연구를 한다고 그러십니까?
    딱 30분만 기다리죠. 그때까지 대답이 없으면, 나갑니다.
    나가려는 사람 붙들었으면, 뭔가 대답이 있어야죠.

  17. comment number 17 by: Gerry-Bevers

    Hanmaumy,

    Both King Kojong and Lee Gyu-won agreed that Ulleungdo had a neighboring island called “Songjukdo,” which was also called “Songdo” and also called “Jukdo.”

    What they disagreed on was Usando. The king said that Usando and Songjukdo were neighboring islands of Ulleungdo, but Lee said that Songjukdo was the only neighboring island and that Usando was the old name for Ulleungdo. In a way, they were both right since Usando was the old name from Ulleungdo, but over time it had become the name for Ulleungdo’s neighboring island of Jukdo.

    Now, both King Kojong and Lee Gyu-won agreed that Ulleungdo had a neighboring island called “Songjukdo,” which was sometimes also called “Songdo” and sometimes “Jukdo.” During his 1882 inspection of Ulleungdo, Lee found that Ulleungdo had two neighboring islands, which the residents were calling “Jukdo” and “Dohang.” Lee’s map showed that “Jukdo” was Ulleungdo’s present-day neighboring island of Jukdo, and that “Dohang” was Ulleungdo’s neighboring island of Gwaneumdo. He found no islands named “Usando” or “Songjukdo,” but Jukdo was one of the alternative names for Songjukdo, which the residents said was a name they had heard before. They also said that they had heard “Usando” was a neighboring island, but they did not know where it was.

    Korea’s old maps show us that Usando was Ulleungdo’s neighboring island of Jukdo. Both both King Kojong and Lee Gyu-won said that another name for Jukdo was “Songjukdo” and “Songdo.” So, that means that Ulleungdo’s neighboring island of Jukdo was, at one time or other, referred to by four different names: Usando, Songjukdo, Songdo, & Jukdo.

    Finally, let me repeat myself. I do not think that Usando was Ulleungdo’s neighboring island of Gwaneumdo; I think it was Ulleungdo’s neighboring island of Jukdo.

  18. comment number 18 by: hanmaumy

    Gerry-Bevers !
    So, you doing not have the confidence on own suggestion, do you try to argue truth of Dokdo? Your individual circumstance understands enough.
    However, I can not come out for wrong opinion nevertheless.
    You are insisting now so over the odds.

    I here your cool solution once hear.
    What answer did you do on my question?
    You do not know well about Dokdo so much.

    You do not distort truth at random.
    You come out and continue debate proudly with me. Let’s discuss continuously with me without avoiding ingloriously.

  19. comment number 19 by: hanmaumy

    I do not think that Usando was Ulleungdo’s neighboring island of Gwaneumdo; I think it was Ulleungdo’s neighboring island of Jukdo.

    무슨 사람이 그렇게 의견이 많이 바뀝니까?
    이규원의 일기에서 Usando는 Chujdo라고 주장하는 거죠.
    松竹于山等 島
    이것부터 시원하게 설명을 해보세요.

    그런데, 왜 Usando와 Chujdo가 그의 일기에서 같이 나오죠?

  20. comment number 20 by: hanmaumy

    Gerry-Bevers !
    Where did you go?

    Lgyuwon refers to that Usando and Chujdo are other island.
    By the way, why do you insist that you are like?

  21. comment number 21 by: Gerry-Bevers

    Hanmaumy,

    The people living on Ulleungdo 1882 said they had heard there was a neighboring island called “Songjuk” and “Usan” (松竹于山等 島), but they did not know where it was. Again, that suggests that Songjukdo and Usando were just alternative names for Ulleungdo’s neighboring island of Jukdo. In 1882, however, Jukdo seems to have been the current popular name.

    I was eating a tuna salad while watching “Troy” on OCN.

  22. comment number 22 by: hanmaumy

    Word called 等 is used when display that it is plural that list in front. And you spoke that clearness Songchukdo is Chukdo.
    By the way, Do you think that Usando and Chudo can become same island?
    Also, where did you go?

  23. comment number 23 by: hanmaumy

    The people living on Ulleungdo 1882 said they had heard there was a neighboring island called “Songjuk” and “Usan” (松竹于山等 島), but they did not know where it was. Again, that suggests that Songjukdo and Usando were just alternative names for Ulleungdo’s neighboring island of Jukdo. In 1882, however, Jukdo seems to have been the current popular name.

    말도 안되는 소리죠. 이규원은 울릉도에서 이 글을 쓴 겁니다. 그것도 대규모 사절단을 이끌고 왕의 명령을 받아 울릉도 검찰을 실시한 거예요. 당신 의견이 얼마나 황당한지 알겠어요?

  24. comment number 24 by: hanmaumy

    Lgyuwon writes this writing in Ulreungdo.
    Do you know how your opinion is absurd?

  25. comment number 25 by: Gerry-Bevers

    Hanmaumy,

    等 was used because Songjuk and Usan were listed together. I do not understand the point you are trying to make.

    As I have said many times, I think Usando and Jukdo were the same island. I also think that Songjukdo and Songdo were alternative names for Ulleungdo’s neighboring island of Jukdo.

    I think I have made myself clear. I have better things to do than to continue to repeat myself and answer silly questions about where I have been. I do not want to make this a long thread of short, silly questions and answers.

    If you have an argument to make, make it, and I might respond to it later if it is worth responding to. In other words, let’s stop with the childish question and answer games, just so that you can call my answer, “absurd.” 

  26. comment number 26 by: hanmaumy

    Gerry-Bevers!
    Then, you eat salad tastily.
    Even though you outlasted in the Korean, there is Korean’s image which you do not understand.

  27. comment number 27 by: hanmaumy

    The story is that is story that is imagination of all your head inside.
    Then, you write novel continually.
    그리고, 당신이 무슨 이유로 이런 짓을 계속하는지 저도 이해하고 있어요. 하지만 제가 위에서 말했듯이 한국인에게는 당신이 이해하지 못하는 부분이 있는 겁니다. 그건 마치 다른 나라의 애국가를 들었을때, 상관이 없는 국가의 사람은 아무 반응이 없지만, 이해상대국의 사람은 가슴이 뭉클해지는 것과 같아요.
    한국인의 민족주의적 색채는 강할 수밖에 없어요. 당신은 이런 모습을 이해할 수 없습니다. 이해하려 하지 마시고 그냥 생각하세요. 이해를 시키려 해도 결국 당신은 이해하지 못합니다. 하지만 사실을 왜곡하려고는 하지 마세요. 그건 당신이라는 사람의 신뢰성을 떨어뜨립니다. 제가 보기에 당신의 독도에 대한 생각만으로 판단을 하면, 완전 바보에 파렴치한입니다. 그러나, 당신이 왜 그런 짓을 하는지 그 이유를 알기에 조금은 이해를 하는 겁니다. 그럼 바이 바이~

  28. comment number 28 by: hanmaumy

    전, 앞으로 이 게시판에 그만 옵니다. 대신 Gerry-Bevers의 글이 오르면, 그 글을 논평하는 글을 제 홈에 올리겠습니다.
    그리고 영어공부 더 열심히 해서 영문으로 그 글을 올릴 수 있도록 노력하겠습니다.
    단순히 의견을 피력했다는 이유만으로 직장을 사퇴한 일은 애석하게 생각합니다. 그러나, 자신이 이해할 수 없는 한국인의 모습이 있을 수 있다는 생각을 다시 한번 곰곰이 생각하시기를 바랍니다. 당신의 독도에 대한 인식은 빵점이었어요. ^^;; 혐한 일본인들 조심하시고……
    정말 한국인에게는 중요한 일입니다. 독도는. 당신이 이해하지 못한다고, 이런 짓 하시면 안되요. 누구도 아닌 자기 자신에게 혼나죠. 자기 자신에게는 만생명의 근본이 존재합니다. 그걸 카톨릭에서는 하나님. 불교에서는 부처라고 하죠. 거짓말을 하는지 자기 자신은 다 알고 있거든요.
    바보 아저씨 안녕~^^;;

  29. comment number 29 by: tomato

    Man, look at you, hanmaumy…flooding the thread with your scribbles. Can’t you wait until Gerry or the others reply? It’s amazing you don’t realize you look really, really absurd and childish. And stop writing in Korean. This is a English site, if you aver noticed! I suggest you take a deep breath and cool down for once.

  30. comment number 30 by: pacifist

    hanmaumy,
    .
    I agree with tomato. We can’t understnad what you wrote, all we could know was that you are excited and you are agitating yourself.
    .
    Stop and think what you wrote, and please write in English.
    .
    BTW hanmaumy, how about my posting #258?

  31. comment number 31 by: toadface

    Tomato, and Ponta, Gerry invited Hanmaumy here to debate this issue in Korean.
    https://www.occidentalism.org/?p=572#comment-17873
    I advise you to show some respect for him. Hanmaumy has put forth some good points. This is NOT your website so quit trying to dictate the terms of this thread.

    I seems Gerry has been naming every island West of Oki as Ulleungdo’s neighbor island Jukdo Islet and finally he’s being held accountable for the nonsense he’s been putting down.

    Gerry, the King and Leekyuwon agreed on absolutely nothing in their pre-survey conversation. We know the Songjukdo Leekyuwon is talking about is not Jukdo because the distance is 30ri which is about 6 times the distance of Jukdo. It is impossible the Koreans would mistake a 2.2km distance for 12kms. Anyone could stand on the shore of Ulleungdo and make a ballpark estimate of Jukdo’s distance. The 30ri distance Leekyuwon heard to only coincides with a Japanese ri, this 30ri distance was also quoted by Japanese fishermen in 1903.

    You are wrong in assuming that Songjukdo refers to only one island because later in their conversation Leekyuwon says “Some say that Songdo and Jukdo are East of Ulleungdo….” From this information Leegyuwon just gives his personal information stating what he thought Songjukdo was….. In other words the information Leekyuwon had heard stated that Jukdo and Songdo were in fact separate islands.

    The translation given in other publication I’ve seen doesn’t support your usage of the character “等” It seems it refer to a plural form for the islands rather than “the same island” or “also known as”

    Gerry you have been saying Songdo was a neghbour island of Ulleungdo for ages. I have yet to see one document or map from you to support this theory. It must therefore be disregarded as just wishful thinking. It is more likely the Japanese considered Dokdo as a neighbor island and attached to Ulleungdo. There are far more historical references treating Matsushima (Dokdo) as such.

  32. comment number 32 by: ponta

    Toadface
    I haven’t complained of this angry Korean gentleman writing in Korea. If he is making good points, why don’t you translate them into English? I am curious.
    (BTW I am not interested if Gerry is writing a novel, eating salad, though it was a bit surprising you were tying to find some hot Russian, Japanese, Korean girls.You are married, aren’t you?)
    https://www.occidentalism.org/?p=572#comment-19273

  33. comment number 33 by: Gerry-Bevers

    Toadface,

    I agree that people should show each other respect while posting, but Hamaumy was showing very little respect. Isn’t respect something you earn? For example, the last thing Hanmaumy wrote to me was 바보 아저씨 안녕~^^;, which means, “Bye, foolish man.”

    The character 等 means “et cetera” or “such as.” I did not translate it as “the same island” or “also known as.”

    No, Toadface, the information Lee Gyu-won heard was that there was only one island east of Ulleungdo.

    Toadface wrote,

    “Gerry you have been saying Songdo was a neghbour island of Ulleungdo for ages. I have yet to see one document or map from you to support this theory.”

    Toadface, if you want to see such a document, then open you eyes and read the following conversation between King Kojong and Lee Gyu-won. My translation has been slightly revised:

    召見檢察使李奎遠 辭陛也 敎曰 鬱陵島近有他國人物之無常往來 任自占便之弊云矣 且松竹島芋山島 在於鬱陵島之傍 而其相距遠近何如 亦有何物與否 未能詳知 今番爾行 特爲擇差者 各別檢察 且將設邑爲計 必以圖形與別單 詳紀錄達也 奎遠曰 芋山島卽鬱陵島 而芋山 古之國都名也 松竹島卽一小島 而與鬱陵島 相距爲三數十里 其所産 卽檀香與簡竹云矣 敎曰 或稱芋山島 或稱松竹島 皆輿地勝覽所載也 而又稱松島竹島與芋山島爲三島統稱鬱陵島矣 其形便一體檢察 鬱陵島本以三陟營將越松萬戶 輪回搜檢者 而擧皆未免疎忽 只以外面探來 故致有此弊 爾則必詳細察得也 奎遠曰 謹當深入檢察矣 或稱松島竹島 在於鬱陵島之東 而此非松竹島以外 別有松島竹島也 敎曰 或有所得聞於曾往搜檢人之說耶 奎遠曰 曾往搜檢之人 未得逢著 而轉聞其梗개矣.

    “우산도는 바로 울릉도이며 우산(芋山)이란 바로 옛날의 우산국의 국도(國都) 이름입니다. 송죽도는 하나의 작은 섬인데 울릉도와 떨어진 거리는 30리(里)쯤 됩니다. 여기서 나는 물건은 단향(檀香)과 간죽(簡竹)이라고 합니다.”

    하였다. 하교하기를,

    “우산도라고도 하고 송죽도라고도 하는데 다 《동국여지승람(東國輿地勝覽)》에 실려있다. 그리고 또 혹은 송도·죽도라고도 하는데 우산도와 함께 이 세 섬을 통칭 울릉도라고 하였다. 그 형세에 대하여 함께 알아보라.

    울릉도는 본래 삼척 영장(三陟營將)과 월송 만호(越松萬戶)가 돌려가면서 수검(搜檢)하던 곳인데 거의 다 소홀히 함을 면하지 못하였다. 그저 외부만 살펴보고 돌아왔기 때문에 이런 폐단이 있었다. 그대는 반드시 상세히 살펴보라.”

    하니, 이규원이 아뢰기를,

    “삼가 깊이 들어가서 검찰하겠습니다. 어떤 사람들은 송도와 죽도는 울릉도의 동쪽에 있다고 하지만 이것은 송죽도 밖에 따로 송도와 죽도가 있는 것은 아닙니다.”

    하였다. 하교하기를,

    “혹시 그전에 가서 수검한 사람의 말을 들은 것이 있는가?”

    하니, 이규원이 아뢰기를,

    “그전에 가서 수검한 사람은 만나지 못하였으나 대체적인 내용을 전해 들었습니다.”

    하였다.

    The king called Lee Gyu-won forward to give his pre-departure greeting.

    The king said, “It is said that these days there is the evil practice of foreigners freely coming and going to Ulleungdo and doing as they please. Also, Songjukdo (松竹島 – 송죽도) and Usando (于山島 – 우산도) are next to Ulleungdo, but there are still no details on the distance between them and what products they have. You were chosen especially for this trip, so pay particular attention to your inspection. Also, we have plans to establish a settlement there, so be sure to prepare a detailed map with your report.”

    Lee Gyu-won replied, Usando is just Ulleungdo. Usan was the name of the ancient country’s capital. Songjukdo is a small island about thirty ri offshore (相距爲三數十里). The products there are rosewood trees and pipestem bamboo.”

    The king said, “It is called either Usando or Songjukdo (敎曰 或稱芋山島 或稱松竹島), which are both written in the Yeojiseungram (輿地勝覽 – 여지승람). It is also called Songdo (松島 – 송도) and Jukdo (竹島 – 죽도). Together with Usando, there are three islands that make up what is called Ulleungdo. Inspect the situation on all of them.

    Originally, the Samcheok commander (三陟營將 – 삼척 영장) and the Wolsong commander (越松萬戶 – 월송 만호) took turns searching Ulleungdo, but they were all careless, inspecting only the exterior of the island. This has led to these evil practices.

    Lee Gyu-won said, “I will go deep inside and conduct my inspection. Some say that Songdo and Jukdo are east of Ulleungdo, but there is only Songjukdo, no separate Songdo and Jukdo.”

    The king asked, “Did you possibly hear that from previous inspectors?”

    Lee Gyu-won said, “I have not yet talked with previous inspectors, but that is the gist of what I have heard.”

    Link to the source

  34. comment number 34 by: toadface

    Gerry, I don’t need your second-hand version of the conversation. I have the original text here.
    http://www.dokdo-takeshima.com/Leekyuwon-Gojong-2.jpg
    http://www.dokdo-takeshima.com/Leekyuwon-Gojong-1.jpg

    The character you are refering to “等” can be used as a plural form as Hanmaumy said. This interpretation is also used in other books such as the “House of Dokdo” series that states Jukdo and Songdo. Thus it is clear Songdo, Jukdo and Usando are not the same islands.

    You didn’t clearly mention the rest of the conversation Gerry. Leekyuwon quoted Some say that Songdo and Jukdo are East of Ulleungdo….” This shows that the information that Leekyuwon had heard clearly stated Jukdo and Songdo were NOT the same island at all.

    If you say thirty ri (about twelve kilometers) is a “neighbour island” it flies in the face of the definition you have been giving abouut the 1870 Report on Chosun Gerry.

    The confused conversation between KingGojong and Leekyuwon has all of the ingredients for a Gerry Bevers classic interpretation. It is ambiguous, confused and open to different interpretations. How you can draw any conclusions from this text is beyond me Gerry, Leekyuwon thought Usando was Ulleungdo…..

    Speaking of respect Gerry, didn’t you once say Hanmauy’s cite was full of garbage..?

  35. comment number 35 by: Gerry-Bevers

    Toadface,

    The link I gave was to the Korean government Web site of the Annals of the Chosun Dynasty. It includes the Korean language translation. If you want to look at the original, go ahead, but it is the exact same thing.

    I do not understand what you are talking about in regard to 等, which, by the way, is not even mentioned in the conversation between King Kojong and Lee Gyu-won.

    Hanmaumy was referring to the phrase (松竹于山等 島) from Lee’s diary, in which he said that he asked Ulleungdo residents about the location of Songjukdo and Usando, but they could not tell him where they were, even though they said they had heard they were neighboring islands. As I have said, since Songjukdo and Usando were alternative names from Ulleungdo’s neighboring island of Jukdo, it would natural that Ulleungdo’s residents would have heard of them but not know their locations if they did not know they were just alternative names for Jukdo.

    I translated the whole conversation, Toadface, and I did mention that Songdo and Jukdo were said to be east of Ulleungdo; however, you are the one who omitted what Lee said next, which was that Songjukdo was the only island east of Ulleungdo. Here is what Lee said.

    Lee Gyu-won said, “I will go deep inside and conduct my inspection. Some say that Songdo and Jukdo are east of Ulleungdo, but there is only Songjukdo, no separate Songdo and Jukdo.”

    Lee was wrong about the twelve kilometers, but he corrected that when he made his map of the island. Besides, twelve kilometers is certainly a lot closer to Ulleungdo than ninety-two kilometers, which is how far away “Dokdo” is from Ulleungdo.

    Please explain to me how Lee’s reference to thirty ri (12 kilometers) “flies in the face of the definition [I] have been giving for the 1870 report on Chosun”? I simply said that Koreans told the Japanese in 1870 that Ulleungdo had a neighboring island called “Songdo” (Matsushima). Where is my definition of a neighboring island?

    Yes, the conversation between King Kojong and Lee Gyu-won gets confusing, especially when you, Toadface, confuse it with elements from Lee’s diary.

    Yes, Hanmaumy’s site is full of garbage interpretations, as is yours, but I still try to be respectful to both of you, even though I think you, Toadface, are a piece of shit with mental problems that include multipersonality disorder. However, you should keep in mind that I am not a trained psychologist, so maybe there is another name for your problem.

  36. comment number 36 by: opp

    When did the Korean Empire know that Takeshima is composed by rocks and stones?
    Even the report by 禹用鼎 in 1900 didn’t understand Takeshima’s existence. Imperial Ordinance 41 is based on his report.

    Oppositely, it is understood that the islands around Ullengdo is composed of the stone from this map.
    “嚴(冠は山)” means “Rock” Therefore, it is understood that 兄弟嚴,燭?嚴 and 大嚴 are composed by the rock. The 石 is used in this map.

    When did the Korean Empire know that Takeshima is composed by rocks and stones?

  37. comment number 37 by: hanmaumy

    Gerry-Bevers ! It is my criticism about this debate.
    http://dokdo.naezip.net/Dokdo/DokdoWedgie03-1.htmIf there is other opinion in my writing, you leave writing in my home notice board.
    Find part that you are talking with toadface now at my home.
    http://dokdo.naezip.net/Dokdo/DokdoWedgie03.htm#1882Gojong
    I explained that it is more reasonable that regard Songchukdo as Chukdo.
    However, I respects toadface’s opinion.
    You do not speak so at random that I do not exist here. Your personality is doubted.
    Gerry-Bevers !
    Then, you write continuously novel.
    I will inform Url after I speak criticism of your novel so.

  38. comment number 38 by: GTOMR

    I think we need to imput the correct place of name like Usando于山島 or So-called Usando所謂于山島,So-called Japan’s Songdo倭所謂松島 and Matsushima松島and 松竹島.
    Just imput Songdo松島 or Usando于山島 makes participant confuse and difficult understandings.

    I think.
    1于山島Usando is one word.
    2所謂于山島 is one word,even though they compose from “So-called + Usando ,this is one word concept)
    3″倭所謂松島(Japan’s So-cakked Songdo)” is also one word,ven though they conposed from “Japan +So-called+Songdo”,this is also one word concept.
    4.”松竹島”is one word or two word concept.When in the Lee’s dialogue with the king.
    5″松島Matsushima” is one word.
    —————————————–
    于山島 is mostly on the whole maps of Korean peninsula historical records as Ullundo’s old name or other names.
    ——————————————
    所謂于山島 showed up after An’s incident.
    所謂于山島(on the Local maps郡縣図of ullugdo,north east of Ullungdo mostly)
    =倭所謂松島(indirect narration間接話法 in the records)the island An landing on to purchase Japanese.
    =Songdo松島即于山Usan(direct narration直接話法 in the records史書)the island An landing on to purchase Japanese.
    >>>Small island north east of Ullungdo
    ——————————————
    松島Matsushima=Liancourt Rocks
    >>>2 pinnacles with small rocks
    ——————————————
    It makes good understandings when exchange the ideas.

  39. comment number 39 by: tomato

    I advise you to show some respect for him. Hanmaumy has put forth some good points. This is NOT your website so quit trying to dictate the terms of this thread.

    What a load of B/S!

  40. comment number 40 by: toadface

    Gerry, I asked you before. Where does it say that the Koreans told the Japanese that there was a nieghbour island called Songdo. It doesn’t say that at all Gerry. All is says is Songdo is a neighbour island of Jukdo.

    If the Koreans or Japanese has known of an island next to Ulleungdo surely there would be one map or clear reference to this fact. The only evidence you have given is your own self-serving interpretation of Lee-kyuwon’s third hand heresay. In fact, they couldn’t agree on distance so please tell us Gerry, at what distance does and island cease being called a neighbour island and start being distant?

    Dokdo and island within visual proximity is a “neighbour island”. In fact you can sail about two or three hours from Ulleungdo in prevailing winds and currents and see Dokdo quite easily. You can go to Dokdo and still see Ulleungdo as it towers about a kilometer high. When you study the geography of these islands and regions well Gerry, we can see how silly your claims are that Koreans were not cognizant of Dokdo.

    How could seriously argue that Koreans who sailed to Ulleungdo two days regulary for over a thousand years never managed to make the extra 3 hours further to see Dokdo?
    Here are some charts of the region to familiarize others with the region.

    http://www.dokdo-takeshima.com/Korean-coast-overview3.jpg

    Here are two charts showing visibility of Dokdo from Ulleungdo.
    http://www.dokdo-takeshima.com/Ulleungdo-Dokdo-chart.jpg
    http://www.dokdo-takeshima.com/Ulleungdo-dokdo-distance3.jpg

    Gerry, I’m not going to stoop to your level and hurt obscenities at you. All I can say is I‘d rather have three dozen different personalities than one like yours.

    Going through your life lashing out at Korea has really taken its toll on you Gerry. Sometimes after reading your posts Gerry, us expats just nod our heads and say “What did they (Koreans) do to you Gerry, what did they do?” Very sad……..

  41. comment number 41 by: Gerry-Bevers

    Toadface,

    I answered your question in Post 259.

    In 1870, the Japanese were in Korea on an inspection mission. They said that Ulleungdo had a neighboring island called “Matsushima” (Songdo), and that they had no record of it. If the Koreans did not tell them, who did?

    An October 1, 1793 entry in Korea’s Ilseongrok said Ulleungdo had a neighboring island called “Songdo.”

    臣按本曹謄錄蔚陵外島其名松島卽古于山國也

    The attendant observed that in the Yejo record, Ulleungdo’s neighboring island of Songdo was part of the country of Usan.

    In 1882, both King Kojong and Lee Gyu-won said Ulleungdo had a neigboring island called “Songjukdo,” which was also called “Songdo” and “Jukdo.”

    If Koreans in Chosun Korea sailed to Liancourt Rocks (Dokdo), there is no evidence of it. They never made a map of it or were able to describe the island in old Korean documents. Why aren’t there any old Korean maps of the island, Toadface?

    By the way, Toadface, Koreans would not have been looking at Ulleungdo from Dokdo; they would have been looking at Dokdo from Ulleungdo, and Dokdo is about 400 times smaller than Ulleungdo.

  42. comment number 42 by: opp

    Toadface,

    Opp stop cutting and pasting reams of crap from you database again. If you want to cite Max Huber why don’t you cite the Palmas precedent and others that assert effective control must be uncontested and peaceful you still haven’t answered that yet.

    ?????
    I have already answered. The Korean empire did not protest against the effective control by Japan. Therefore, it is admitted that the effect rule of Japan is peaceful.

    PULAU LIGITAN AND PULAU SIPADAN
    The Court moreover cannot disregard the fact that at the time when these activities were carried out, neither Indonesia nor its predecessor, the Netherlands, ever expressed its disagreement or protest.

    The Korean empire did not notice the he effective control by Japan till 1906. This is the evidence that the Korean empire did not fulfill the obligation of her territory.

    Territorial sovereignty, as has already been said, involves the exclusive right to display the activities of a State. This right has as corollary a duty: the obligation to protect within the territory the rights of other States, in particular their right to integrity and inviolability in peace and in war, together with the rights which each State may claim for its nationals in foreign territory. Without manifesting its territorial sovereignty in a manner corresponding to circumstances, the State cannot fulfil this duty.

    In order to regularise the situation as regards other States, this organisation requires to be completed by the establishment of powers to ensure the fulfilment of the obligations imposed by international law on every State in regard to its own territory.

    Even if you repeat, it is useless. Because the law on which you insist doesn’t exist. It exists only in Korean’s delusion.