Occidentalism
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Developing a Dokdo/Takeshima database

January 10th, 2007 . by Matt

We need to develop some sort of Dokdo/Takeshima database. Gerry’s posts are doing great work, and are great medicine for Dokdo fever. In addition to each post, there are mountains of comments with additional information. However, finding all this information about specific issues is quite hard. We need to develop some sort of keyed database to make the information easy to find.

As a case in point, I present this. It references this article in The Seoul Times. I already know that this one has been debunked somewhere here on Occidentalism, but I cannot find the post or comment where it was debunked.

I am using that as an example, but there are plenty of other cases where the “Dokdo is our land” crowd will present a random article, document, or map and say “look, proof Dokdo belongs to Korea!”. Any ideas on better organizing our information?


33 Responses to “Developing a Dokdo/Takeshima database”

  1. comment number 1 by: Two Cents

    Maybe opp’s site? If he wil allow it that is. But he is currently busy preparing reports on the international law concerning the Takeshima incorporation so he might not have time to manage a website.

    I have promised him to prepare English-version rebuttals to the Korean claim, but it’s so hard to get started. (Sorry, opp.) I proposed to opp that a page with the basic timeline plus links to relavent information on the incident/map/document might be one way to organize the data. A glossary might also be needed.

  2. comment number 2 by: pacifist

    I agree. As I wrote somewehere else, we need a homepage to show the world the truth about Takeshima/Dokdo.
    Hopefully it can be written in both English and hanglu and Japanese.

    It must include all the Gerry’s works including Occidentalism and Gerry’s own site etc with various information available from posters in the Occidentalism.

    Any idea?

  3. comment number 3 by: Matt

    I agree. As I wrote somewehere else, we need a homepage to show the world the truth about Takeshima/Dokdo.
    Hopefully it can be written in both English and hanglu and Japanese.

    It must include all the Gerry’s works including Occidentalism and Gerry’s own site etc with various information available from posters in the Occidentalism.

    Any idea?

    I can set up another site, no problem. There is no problem with hosting, domain names, or anything like that. How will we present the information, what format will will use, what kind of software to run it? I am thinking along these lines.

  4. comment number 4 by: MarkA

    Make sure you Google bomb certain keywords in Japanese, Korean, and English, and you will absolutely destroy the myth.

  5. comment number 5 by: pacifist

    Matt,

    Wow! It’s quite thrilling!

    The chapters should be (of course this is only my thought…);
    1) Was Usando Takeshima/Dokdo? – The lies of Korean official theory.
    (Of course this chapter should include all the maps Gerry collected and the Korean old books.)
    This should be a voluminous chapter!

    2) Did Japanese know Takeshima/Dokdo in the ancient times? Did Korean people know it?

    3) Did Japanese use Takeshima/Dokdo in the ancient times? Did Korean people use it?

    4) How Japan incorporated Takeshima/Dokdo in 1905? – The sealion hunting in the 19th century and Japan.

    5) How was Takeshima/Dokdo treated in San Francisco peace treaty?

    6) How Rhee line was set and how was the reactions of Japan and the world?

    In my opinion, it must also include FAQ style answers.

    And it must also include refutations to the theories by pro-Korean people just like wedgie (or toadface).
    For example, toadface used to show old Japanese maps which don’t feature Takeshima/Dokdo (but not all the maps don’t need to depict all the small islands). It must also mention the 1877 confusion in the new Meiji government, the relation to Russo-Japanese war (they used to insist that Japan stole the island to fight with Russia but obviusly it’s not true), and so on… (We may need to examine what pro-Korean people say in various sites.)

  6. comment number 6 by: James

    Perhaps you could use some sort of wiki? You could have wiki entries for every map or historical document, as well as wiki entries mentioning specific urls or articles and debunking their claims with some sort of evidence “evidence that disproves this claim” section underneath it, linking to the wiki entries for maps/documents/etc.

  7. comment number 7 by: benmiller

    I would suggest the lightest weight tools of ma.gnolia and/or a google co-op personalized search engine run off the set of sites you found most relevant.

  8. comment number 8 by: Two Cents

    pacifist,
    I think a section on Ahn Yong-bok is definitely needed. That is the incident that lead to the present Korean perception that
    Since Usan = Matsushima (by Ahn Yong-bok)
    And Matsushima = Liancourt Rocks (late 19th to 20th century Japan)
    Then Liancourt (Dokto) = Usan.

  9. comment number 9 by: sqz

    とても良いアイデアだと思います。
    僕は…..英語が不得意なんで、みんなの足を引っぱらないよう、影で応援しています。

  10. comment number 10 by: pacifist

    Two Cents,

    I agree with you.  In my opinion, it should have mentioned in the chapter 2 or 3. Ahn Yong-Bok was the culprit who made Korean people believe Usando = Matsushima (Takeshima/Dokdo) as you say.

  11. comment number 11 by: GarlicBreath

    Why not put up a button for donations for G Bevers (and maybe pacifist and Ponta) to write a book. I think if they were paid some cash.. a book can come of it.

    The great part is that Bev/Pac/Pon are honest, and dillegent in their fact findnig. This is vital. The other side… the dark side, uses emotion, lies, half truths, and racism to make their point.

  12. comment number 12 by: opp

    I am combatting at wikipedia now. I hope not Brog but the form of a usual site because I want to use in wikipedia as source. The domain name to make public felt is good too.

  13. comment number 13 by: pacifist

    opps,

    Are you fighting at wikidepia now? I once tried to rewrite the depiction before it was locked – it was an endless fight with the pro-Korean people.
    But after it was locked, it seems the depiction in the site began to move to neutral than before (it had been written ain favor of pro-Korean side), was it owing to you? Thanks a lot.

  14. comment number 14 by: opp

    pacifist,
    Dokdo article of wikipedia is semi-protect now.I am a stage still discussed in talk page.

  15. comment number 15 by: Gerry-Bevers

    I think a collaborative database is a great idea. If we all work together and combine what we know, I am sure we can come up with a very good Web site on Dokdo/Takeshima. Personally, I think arguing with Koreans in Wikipedia is a waste of time and effort.

    I have an idea of how we can start, but I want to work on it a little bit before I present it.

  16. comment number 16 by: koreanmaster

    Probably Japanese will block every data-input which is against their point of view.

  17. comment number 17 by: koreanmaster

    probably this white aussie will block all my comments because they are against his point of view.

    which makes him even more japanese than he pretends to be

  18. comment number 18 by: Matt

    probably this white aussie will block all my comments because they are against his point of view.

    which makes him even more japanese than he pretends to be

    Calm down. You wrote about 8 comments all at once. There is a spam filter on wordpress, the software that runs this blog. The first comment needs to be approved, then the comments go through automatically. There is no need complain that your “point of view” has been censored, even though I am yet to see one. Lots of commenters here have a different point of view, and they are not censored. Doesn’t that clue you in to the fact that people are not being censored?

    That being said, avoid ethnic slurs or any libelous or illegal comments, and you will be fine.

  19. comment number 19 by: koreanmaster

    is it ilelgal to write 8 comments? why are you mentioning that? do you want to crticize the quality of my comments?

  20. comment number 20 by: Matt

    is it ilelgal to write 8 comments? why are you mentioning that? do you want to crticize the quality of my comments?

    I mean any comments that might violate laws in my country, or yours.

  21. comment number 21 by: koreanmaster

    the server isn`t on cayman islands?

  22. comment number 22 by: ponta

    probably this white aussie will block all my comments because they are against his point of view.

    which makes him even more japanese than he pretends to be

    “Funny” is my reaction.

    koreanmaster , are you ethnic Korean?

  23. comment number 23 by: koreanmaster

    no i am half burma half portugese.

  24. comment number 24 by: ponta

    no i am half burma half portugese.

    Then why is your hadlename “Koreanmaster”?

  25. comment number 25 by: koreanmaster

    that was irony. isn`t it obvious?

  26. comment number 26 by: Gerry-Bevers

    I have a couple of ideas for creating a Dokdo/Takeshima database, but I think we should start by organizing the comments in our Comments section. There are a lot of good comments there. Here is my idea:

    First, we make a list of all the different documents, records, maps, articles, and issues. Then below each title we place numbers, which we use as links to the “good” comments in our Comments section that deal with that particular item. We can also link to external sources. The most detailed or best comment would get the Number 1 slot, and the next in line would get Number 2 and so on. Here is an example:

    Daehanjiji (1899)
    1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 13…

    San Francisco Treaty (1951)
    1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 13…

    After we create the “Comment Index” thread, maybe Matt could create a link to the thread and put it just above his “Hall of Shame” link or some appropriate place. He could call it something like “Dokdo/Takeshima Index” or “Takeshima/Dokdo Index,” or whatever. That will give people easy access to the index.

    The index can be organized into categories, such as, Korean Documents, Japanese Documents, Other Documents, Korean Maps, Japanese Maps, Other Maps, Korean Articles, Japanese Articles, Other Articles, etc. Under each category the documents, maps, and articles would be arranged in alphabetical order. See the following:

    Korean Documents

    • Daehanjiji (1899)
      1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12…
    • Imperial Edict No. 41 (1900)
      1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12…

    Other Documents

    • San Francisco Treaty (1951)
      1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12….

    People can participate in the development of the index by posting suggested indexes in a comment. Then we can copy and paste the individual suggestions to create our “main index” in a post. The Comments section of the post would be used to make suggestions for amending the index. If the comments section gets too long, we could simply copy the index to a new post, starting a new Comments section, and relink to it on the menu.

    What do you think? Too complicated? Any suggestions for simplifying the process?

    By the way, you link to an individual comment by clicking on the time stamp of the comment to get the address of the comment. You then copy and paste that address into the “Link URL:” box that shows up when you click on the link icon in the menu.

  27. comment number 27 by: Kaneganese

    Gerry, do you mind if I translate your post on Dokto/Takeshima into Japanese while all you guys are working on Database or Homepage?
    Looks like a lots of Japanese are interested in what you are saying.I found Mr. Kunitake Tanaka, famous (infamous by toadface?) Takeshima site owner, on BBS in Yahoo! Japan and someone in that thread are following your post. And there are lots of topics about your situation in Japanese Blogs. Maybe it is good for them to read what you say since for most Japanese who are interested in this issue are not have easy access to Korean historical maps and documents. Well, it was really a bad move for Korean University not to rehire you considering your posts are now getting huge attention from Japanese.
    If you are OK, I am happy to do translation (from Monday. I am going to a short trip now and comes back tomorrow night). If they could read your post in Japanese, they could give us more constructive opinion or useful information, I hope.

  28. comment number 28 by: Gerry-Bevers

    Hi Kaneganese,

    Feel free to translate what you want. I am glad to hear that Japanese are becoming more interested in the issue. Maybe more research will be done.

    I am curious about what Mr. Tanaka is saying on that thread. Could you summarize a little bit of it?

    Take care.

  29. comment number 29 by: Two Cents

    Matt,
    I think it might be a nice idea to have a section for discussion on various topics related to the Takesehima/Dokto issue. I recommend a 2-channel type engine&viewer for the following reasons.
    1) It’s text only so that it’s light. (You might create a separate storage room where images can be stored and linked to, so that users can upload images and include information on it.) That way, people can read quickly through the comments.
    2) The threads are arranged by most recent activity, so viewers can instantly see which are currently active. And when you are talking among a specific group of people and don’t want to attract trolls, you can just input a “sage (keep down)” command, which keeps the thread from rising on the list. (The active threads are likely to attract more trolls.)
    3) And most importantly, the 2-channel engine has a “toumei apon (transparent kill)” command which simply makes the comments posted by an unfavorable poster “transparent.” The “unfavorable poster” is set by each user, so his comments do exist on the thread, but it is not seen on the viewer of the person who has designated him as a target of “toumei apon.” For example, if I think koreanmaster or chonko is just a troll and not making any contributions that interest me, I can just place him on the toumei apon list, and his comments will not be reflected on my viewer.

    I think the 2-channel type discussion board might also be useful for classifying the various pieces of information we have acculumated on Occidentalism. People who have some time on their hands can go through the comments in the past posts and copy& paste them under headers that they think it is relevant to. After sufficient information has been accumulated, somebody can make a summary of the topic, and post it in the thread to be reviewed and proofread by others. Then, it can be uploaded to the main section. With a wiki-style engine, Matt might be accused of banning pro-Dokto writers, thus manipulating the procedure to form a conclusion validating the Japanese claim. With a 2-channel style board, Matt doesn’t have to ban any users. The viewers themselves can judge whether or not someone is appropriate, and decide to ignore him or “apon” him, and go on with the discussion. The trolls can type furiously away on their computers to their heart’s content; they will only prove that they are nothing but trolls.

  30. comment number 30 by: sakovich

    Of possible interest for your database from my blog.

    I am the translator of both of these documents.

    http://ampontan.wordpress.com/takeshima-shimane-prefecture/

    This is Shimane Prefecture’s position. My translation was vetted by a Japanese government bureaucrat, with whom I discussed this extensively. He was quite knowledgeable.

    http://ampontan.wordpress.com/takeshima-prof-masao-shimojo/

    I previously posted this on Japundit before I started my own blog.

    Here is the URL for my blog. If you get a chance, stop by and read the About and Intraview page.

    http://ampontan.wordpress.com/

    Please note that these translations are copyrighted. Just give me and/or my site credit if you use them!

    Yoroshiku!

  31. comment number 31 by: Matt

    Of possible interest for your database from my blog.

    I am the translator of both of these documents.

    http://ampontan.wordpress.com/takeshima-shimane-prefecture/

    This is Shimane Prefecture’s position. My translation was vetted by a Japanese government bureaucrat, with whom I discussed this extensively. He was quite knowledgeable.

    http://ampontan.wordpress.com/takeshima-prof-masao-shimojo/

    I previously posted this on Japundit before I started my own blog.

    Here is the URL for my blog. If you get a chance, stop by and read the About and Intraview page.

    http://ampontan.wordpress.com/

    Please note that these translations are copyrighted. Just give me and/or my site credit if you use them!

    Yoroshiku!

    Wow! Everyone go and check out sakovich’s translations!

  32. comment number 32 by: Aki

    sakovich,
    Wow! I started to read English blogs finding your interesting posts in Japundit. I am very glad to know that you have started your own blog.


  33. […] I have set up a simple wiki to serve as a testing database, as we discussed before. At the moment anyone is able to go in an edit it. Go out and try it and see if this works for us. If not, I am open to other suggestions. […]