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Do the children have a choice?

October 6th, 2006 . by Gerry-Bevers

The following video would be quite impressive if I could be sure the children had a choice in the matter, but since it is North Korea, I am afraid I only see children being driven and brainwashed into being obedient subjects of the “Dear Leader.”


37 Responses to “Do the children have a choice?”

  1. comment number 1 by: MarkA

    I’ve seen the full documentary and they are definitely brainwashed beyond hope.

  2. comment number 2 by: pacifist

    Dear Gerry,

    I couldn’t see the video because my anti-virus system worked and excluded it. It’s a pity but I can imagine….

  3. comment number 3 by: pacifist

    Brainwashing in NK is not unrelated to the one in SK, I think. People of SK must notice that they are receiving the same treatment.


  4. […] On the same point, Gerry-Bevers posts about North Korean children ”…brainwashed into being obedient subjects of the ‘Dear Leader’.” This is just a goldmine of cultural buzz words and inferences might only for one purpose, energizing a corps of loyal readers with similar ideological perspectives. […]

  5. comment number 5 by: sqz

    pacifist

    I couldn’t see the video because my anti-virus system worked and excluded it. It’s a pity but I can imagine

    I watched the video.
    It seems to be exercise scenery of mass calisthenics.

  6. comment number 6 by: Gerry-Bevers

    Left Flank,

    You do not believe North Korean children are being driven or brainwashed into being obedient subjects of Kim Jong-il?

  7. comment number 7 by: Gerry-Bevers

    Pacifist,

    Pacifist,

    It is just an interesting music video that shows North Korean children overgoing strenuous training for “mass game” routines. In fact, they are training so hard that they look like robots, perfect symbols for a fascist regime.

  8. comment number 8 by: James

    Since they don’t actually learn anything in school, they’ve got plenty of time to train for mass games.

  9. comment number 9 by: James

    Wow, that Left Flank guy is a goldmine of boredom. Maybe I should make some blog posts where I complain about people expressing their viewpoints on current events, and then I could quote a dull passage from the Economist that sums up what most people who follow the news in Asia already know. It’s a trite and impotent update if I’ve ever seen one.

  10. comment number 10 by: ponta

    I am interested in how much South Korean people are informed of the situation of North Korea (and China)
    Do they think North Korea is just economically poor country with a “Dear Leader”, but it is just that US base in South Korea is an obstacle to the unification?
    Do they think China will stand aloof with regard to North Korea?

    It is my personal opinion that international community has been cruel leaving the dictator oppressing, torturing its people, violating the human rights, even if we take the right of the state’s self-determination into account. It is not a matter of economic interconnectedness nor economic development, but it is a matter of massive violation of human right.

    I understand the wish of South Korean people to be united with North Korea, and it is legitimate wish, but I don’t understand its policy toward Kim Jong-il at all. I don’t understand how South Koreans can be indifferent to the dictator who is responsible for the devastating situation of North Korean people.

    South Korea was at war with North Korea.
    South Korea has been technically at war with North Korea.
    North Korea killed civilians during the War.
    North Korea has kidnapped South Korea civilians.
    North Korea has been oppressing its people.
    North Korea has not apologized and compensated.

    And yet South Korea people are busy blaming the wrongs Japan did more than 60 years ago, for which Japan has apologized and compensated while
    South Korea people seem to be content with Sun Shine Policy.
    I find it hard to understand.
    Do they know the situation of North Korea?

  11. comment number 11 by: YoungRocco

    Ponta:

    How are you doing, old friend.

    I read your post and I have decided to help you answer your question.

    South Korea people seem to be content with Sun Shine Policy.
    I find it hard to understand.

    Ponta, keep in mind that a cornerstone of the sunshine policy is humanitarian aid to North Korea. North Korea’s people are starving, and so it is only natural to provide food and fertilizer aid to help stem the number of starving citizens.

    So, your problem is that you view the issue in the wrong light. Aid to North Korea helps stem the humanitarian crisis occurring in that country.

    I don’t understand how South Koreans can be indifferent to the dictator who is responsible for the devastating situation of North Korean people.

    False. South Koreans are not at all indifferent to the suffering occurring in North Korea. On a policy level, South Korea has laws which freely accept refugees from North Korea and provide them with financial assisstance upon arrival. For examples of human rights campaigning on an individual level, I direct you the following links:

    1. http://www.linkgloabl.net.
    2.http://daily.stanford.edu/article/2003/5/13/humanRightsActivistSpeaksOnNorthKorea
    3.http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/24/international/asia/24letter.html?ex=1298437200&en=93a3a8bfd6065711&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss
    4. http://nkhumanrights.or.kr/NKHR_new/index_eng_new.htm
    5. http://www.goodfriends.or.kr/eng/eng.html

    So there you have it, Ponta. I hope I have helped provide a clearer picture of human rights campaigning in South Korea for you.

    Enjoy the rest of your day.

  12. comment number 12 by: ponta

    YoungRocco

    Thanks
    your comment help me a bit about how South Korea has been manipulating its people into believing that South Korea is helping North Korea by humanitarian aid . Unfortunately the fact is humanitarian aid is not reaching to the North Korean people who needs it but is helping the regime to keep itself.

    On a policy level, South Korea has laws which freely accept refugees from North Korea and provide them with financial assistance upon arrival.

    And yet some North Korean refugees are beginning to choose US as a host country because they realized they would be discriminated in South Korea, is that right?

    For examples of human rights campaigning on an individual level, I direct you the following links:

    Human rights campaign is all right , but the point is who is violating human
    rights, and who is helping the dictator keep alive.

    I still do not understand why South Korea keep blaming Japanese who were hanged dead for their crime, but keep educating kids to praise the dictator who should be hanged dead now.

  13. comment number 13 by: Gerry-Bevers

    Rocco,

    The Sunshine Policy is designed to get the rest of the world to pay for the development of North Korea, so that South Koreans don’t have to. Humanitarian concerns are a distant second.

    “National Human Rights Commission Blind to North Korea”

    “They will say they did not know”

    “Seoul Closing Door on Mass Defections”

    “Seoul’s double-talk on reunification”

    “62% Against Assisted Defections of N. Koreans”

    “North Korean defectors pressured to shut down online broadcasts”

    “Abducted South Koreans’ Kin Fault Seoul for Failure to Act”

    “Double jeopardy for North Korean defectors”

  14. comment number 14 by: tomato

    The situation in Korea is getting really alarming. N Korea may detonate its A-bomb anytime now.

    I heard that Korean text books actually praise the great leader in the North and blame division of Korea on the US. There is no question that S Korea is becoming anti-US. I noticed S Korea criticized Japan when N Korea fired ballistic missiles…how crazy can that be? These and other developments in S Korea makes me wonder what the so-called “Sunshine Policy” is really about…can it be Korean nationalism in disguise? The ultranationalistic S Korean regime may be paying patronage to its Korean pure-bred big brother in hope of reunification under Greater Chosun. Sounds similar to Yugoslavia and Nazi Germany.

    I feel darkness falling over the Far East.

  15. comment number 15 by: YoungRocco

    Mr. Bevers:

    Ah, my comrade, How are you doing?

    I read what you wrote to me:

    The Sunshine Policy is designed to get the rest of the world to pay for the development of North Korea, so that South Koreans don’t have to.

    Your statements make good fodder for a bestseller.

    Maybe even two.

    But in discussing international politics, it is best to stick to numbers and facts. If you have an idea for a new conspiracy thriller, best to make up a post, write a treatment, and ask the good readers of Occidentalism to review it.

    That’s a good one: South Korea provides humanitarian aid in a devilish plot to end its own FID in North Korea while simultaneously getting the rest of the world to increase its FID in the North Korea.

    Publish your book, Mr. Bevers. I’ll gladly review it.

    Take Care.

  16. comment number 16 by: Errol

    The main worry is an economic and political implosion in the North, which could lead to hungry hordes descending on the South. That would force a rapid German-style unification that could destroy South Korea’s recovering economy. So Kim Dae Jung has decreed a “sunshine policy” that aims to strengthen the North’s economy while encouraging social and cultural exchanges as confidence-building measures. If this means keeping Kim Jong Il in power and leaving the communist system intact, so be it. For the South, it is more important to create breathing space to give both sides time to adjust to the idea of reunification.

    The current South Korean regime has no desire for rapid reunification. If a few (or many) North Koreans starve to death, are tortured in concentration camps or young women are forced to serve the Dear Leader that is their Confucian-Buddhist fate. If a few (or many) South Koreans become obese, are addicted to computer games or young women are forced to serve dear senior public servants that is their Confucian-Buddhist fate.

    Stop roccing the sunshine boat!

    Sayonara to reunification in Asia Week 2000

  17. comment number 17 by: ponta

    S. Korea Should Be Ashamed

    It is with deep concern, therefore, that I see President Roh Moo Hyun’s gross appeasement of Kim Jung-Il’s bloody dictatorship, but it is with subdued rage that I read about Roh’s treatment of fellow Koreans trying to escape the horrors of the North. To make sure others are aware of this shameful and heartless policy, I am excerpting here, omitting all footnotes, Nicholas Eberstadt’s, “Bring Them Home.” He is the Henry Wendt Scholar in Political Economy at The American Enterprise Institute. His article furthers my contention that Roh is a mole or secret agent of the North, or, if not, he might as well be one.

    Youngrocco and South Korean people are being deceived, or are these professors are deceived?

  18. comment number 18 by: YoungRocco

    Ponta:

    Thank you for your posts.

    You know something, in all honesty, you are my favorite poster on this blog.

    Someday, I hope we will have the chance to meet in person to discuss these issues face to face over a cup of coffee or something.

    Ah, but on to business.

    South Korea has been manipulating its people into believing that South Korea is helping North Korea by humanitarian aid

    Ponta, South Korea sends thousands of tons in food aid and fertilizer to North Korea every year. North Korea’s citizen’s are hungry and South Korea contributes to feeding them.

    Unfortunately the fact is humanitarian aid is not reaching to the North Korean people who needs it but is helping the regime to keep itself.

    Although the western media does not have adequate means to gather information in or about North Korea, it regularly repeats the soundbite that humanitarian aid is not “going to the people” but is instead “going to the regime.”

    Ponta, I urge you to refrain from retreating behind soundbutes. Think critically!

    A starving populace is not good for a regime, and the Kim regime is no exception. Therefore, it is very likely that most of the food is going towards feeding the people. All regimes desire stability, and providing food to one’s citizens is the best way to ensure that.

    Kim Jong Il, as fat as he is, cannot consume a millions tons of rice in a year. Kim Jong Il’s closest advisors too are not capable of consuming millions of tons of rice in a given year. So most of the aid must go toward feeding those who are starving.

    And yet some North Korean refugees are beginning to choose US as a host country because they realized they would be discriminated in South Korea, is that right?

    The number of North Korean refugees who have fled to South Korea has increased dramatically since the implementation of the sunshine policy:

    # 2001 – 583
    # 2002 – 1,139
    # 2003 – 1,281
    # 2004 – 1,894
    # 2005 – 1,387

    They come to South Korea to seek employment and a better life.

    Human rights campaign is all right , but the point is who is violating human
    rights, and who is helping the dictator keep alive.

    Condemnations don’t put food in starving people’s stomachs, Ponta. You don’t get off the moral hook just because you feel pity for starving people. Nor do you help starving people by imposing sanctions. You help prevent starvation by providing food, humanitarian aid and jobs. All of which South Korea does and continues to do.

    So in short, Ponta. I would submit that you are tragically underinformed about the situation in North Korea. Your thesis about apathy toward North Korea among South Koreans is tragically flawed.

    Have a nice day.

  19. comment number 19 by: Matt

    You help prevent starvation by providing food, humanitarian aid and jobs. All of which South Korea does and continues to do.

    YoungRocco, the problem in North Korea is systematic. There is no reason why North Korea could not be as prosperous as South Korea. The food aid and other aid does help to maintain the North Korean regime, and the more aid they get the less North Korea needs to invest in the welfare of its people. Thus resources can be diverted into nuclear weapons programs, and ‘army first policy’ that drains the wealth of the people.

  20. comment number 20 by: Matt

    By the way, drop the sarcasm. I wont ask again.

  21. comment number 21 by: tomato

    The current South Korean regime has no desire for rapid reunification

    Well, I’m kind of worried about reunification by the North or a regime very sympathetic to it. S Korea’s apparent pro-North attitude and its nationalitic purification policy (the nation here being “Korea”, not only S Korea) gives me doubts about its intentions. I’d be glad if I end up being wrong (of course!).

  22. comment number 22 by: ponta

    YoungRocco
    Thanks
    First let me state the relevant facts.

    In December 2005, the regime confirmed that it intended to carry out earlier threats to terminate all international humanitarian assistance operations in the DPRK (calling instead for developmental assistance only) and to restrict the activities of international and non-governmental aid organizations such as the World Food Program. Firm political control remains the Communist government’s overriding concern, which will likely inhibit the loosening of economic regulations.CIA

    Food aid has been provided to help North Korea alleviate chronic, massive food
    shortages that began in the early1990s and that led to severe famine in the mid-1990s
    that killed an estimated 1-2 million North Koreans. Food aid to North Korea has
    come under criticism because the DPRK government restricts the ability of donor
    agencies to operate in the country, particularly with regard to monitoring food
    shipments, making it difficult to assess how much of each donation actually reaches
    its intended recipients. There have been anecdotal reports that food aid is diverted
    to theNorth Koreanelite, who reportedlyeitherconsumeit themselves or resell it for
    profit on the black market. There are also reports that international food assistance
    has been diverted to the North Korean military.Congressional Research Service

    About 20 percent of North Korea’s land-mass, containing some 13 percent of its population, is not accessible to international humanitarian agencies. In 2003 NGOs complained that the government had “placed real limits on where and when NGO representatives could travel, what type of activities they could pursue, and with whom they could interact…NGO representatives quickly became frustrated as DPRK officials blocked some [of] the most common monitoring devices, including morbidity tracking, nutritional surveys, market surveys, and price surveys…”(59)Food Aid to North Korea

    The Bush administration has canceled a planned shipment of 25,000 tons of food aid to North Korea later this month, citing concerns that the food will not reach those who need it.
    “We still think there are serious humanitarian needs in North Korea, but we cannot continue to supply food if we cannot even minimally assure that it will reach its intended recipients,”

    If it is not reaching people who is in need, who is consuming it?

    Therefore, it is very likely that most of the food is going towards feeding the people. All regimes desire stability, and providing food to one’s citizens is the best way to ensure that.

    Kim Jong Il, as fat as he is, cannot consume a millions tons of rice in a year. Kim Jong Il’s closest advisors too are not capable of consuming millions of tons of rice in a given year. So most of the aid must go toward feeding those who are starving.

    This is why I doubt if South Korean people are informed of the situation of North Korea.
    According to the refugee, roughly North Korea divides people into three classes;core class (核心階層) that support the regime, unstable class(動揺階層),enemy class(敵対階層)
    link (in Japanese).Among 18.000.000 Noth Korean people are brainwashed supporter of the regime. And the food goes to these people.
    Here is another source about the class in North Korea.

    Food and other necessities of life are strictly rationed, and different occupational groups are reported to receive different qualities and kinds of goods. Sin Sangok and Ch’oe Unhui wrote in the South Korean media in the late 1980s that consumption of beef and pork is largely restricted to “middle-class” and “upper-class people”; “ordinary people” can obtain no meat except dog meat, which is not rationed.Classes and Social Strata

    Youngrocco, this is the reality of North Korea and your dear leader.

    Youngrocco wrote

    The number of North Korean refugees who have fled to South Korea has increased dramatically since the implementation of the sunshine policy:

    The western observers wrote

    With the transition from the Kim Dae Jung administration to the Roh Moo Hyun presidency, it is true that more North Korean refugees were repatriated to the ROK than ever before: over 3,000 since President Roh’s inauguration, more than half of the total since the 1953 Korean War cease-fire. But such numbers still constitute a mere trickle of incomers, not even a stream — and it is a flow that has hardly been encouraged by official policy.

    Quite the contrary: in December 2004, the Republic of Korea’s unification ministry announced that it was slashing the government’s per-capita resettlement stipend for North Korean newcomers by almost two-thirds — from $28,000 to $10,000 — and that it would be stepping up its screening and interrogations of would-be resettlers.S. Korea Should Be Ashamed

    North Korea Execution Video Obtained by Japanese Media

    There is a dark and uncomfortable realm in which toleration of evil, or appeasement of evil, suddenly turns into active collaboration with evil.

    I would turn the question around and ask, “How can one not call such thugs evil, or the mass murderers of millions evil (Hitler, Stalin, Lenin, Mao, Pol Pot)?” Not to do so means that one is without the moral gauge that is crucial to civilization and humanity, or his real politics has corrupted him, as it has the leaders of South Korea.Dare to Call Evil Evil

    Youngrocco wrote

    Condemnations don’t put food in starving people’s stomachs, Ponta. You don’t get off the moral hook just because you feel pity for starving people. Nor do you help starving people by imposing sanctions. You help prevent starvation by providing food, humanitarian aid and jobs. All of which South Korea does and continues to do.

    My opinion is that condemnations will upset the evil regime, so that there may be a greater chance to reform. Hypocritical policy just increase the North Korean victims.

    Youngrocco wrote

    So in short, Ponta. I would submit that you are tragically underinformed about the situation in North Korea. Your thesis about apathy toward North Korea among South Koreans is tragically flawed.

    I guess either Non-Korean people are tragically brainwashed about the North Korean regime or you are tragically brainwashed by South Korea.

  23. comment number 23 by: YoungRocco

    Errol:

    Thanks for your post.

    I believe this is the first time, we have ever had a discussion.

    So let me begin by saying…

    “Nice to meet you!”

    So I read your post and this statement sort of stuck out:

    The current South Korean regime has no desire for rapid reunification.

    You’ll excuse me for pointing out that your interpretation of this article is inaccurate.

    The problem with your analysis is that you paint the current choice facing South Korea as one between rapid unification versus gradual reunification. In fact, rapid unification is not even feasible at the moment given the continuing resilience of the Kim regime.

    What South Korea must choose between:

    A. A North Korea that is without market reforms and who people are completely starving.

    B. A North Korea that has initiated some market reforms and has a population that has, at the very least, some level of subsistence.

    Given these two choices, it is obvious that B is the better plan. To this end, the Sunshine policy was initiated so as to limit tension, begin commercial and trade talks and make it politically feasible to increase humanitarian aid to North Korea.

    There you have it.

    I enjoyed this first exchange of views.

    And hope to continue our exchanges in the future.

    Take Care.

  24. comment number 24 by: YoungRocco

    Matt:

    By the way, drop the sarcasm. I wont ask again.

    I am not being sarcastic. I am being sincere.

  25. comment number 25 by: YoungRocco

    Matt:

    I hope this post finds you well.

    YoungRocco, the problem in North Korea is systematic.

    I assume you meant to say that the problem in North Korea is “systemic.”

    That the economic problem in South Korea is systemic cannot be argued. North Korean Marxism is a failure. They cannot renovate their system with a few market stalls here and there. They need to fully embrace a market economy and abandon their military policies.

    The food aid and other aid does help to maintain the North Korean regime

    You could go along way with this claim, Matt. But the alternative to providing humanitarian aid to the North is simply allowing millions of people starve. Moral condemnations of the North are all well and good, but if people are allowed to starve, those moral condemnations are hypocritical.

    I propose a compromise:

    We can agree that:

    South Korea certainly should do more to engage North Korea on its human rights abuses. The Roh administration’s interpretation of the Sunshine policy is not doing enough to foster change and improvement in North Korea.

    Humanitarian aid is not enough. South Korea needs to also condemn the abuse of human rights in the North.

    It’s not like North Korea will refuse the food if South Korea condemns it.

    We can disagree that:

    South Koreans “don’t care about starvation in North Korea.”

    I eagerly await your response.

    Enjoy your day.

  26. comment number 26 by: Travolta

    Young Rocco,

    I don’t think you’re a stupid person. I think you are intelligent and Im willing to believe what some belive to be sarcastic remarks I will accept as sincere. I wonder however why you think the Sunshine policy is anything but morally repugnant. It is a system which obviously only serves to keep the NK regime in power. There is no sane person on earth that would deny the NK regime is evil. You don’t even have to be a Bush supporter to believe that. I understand the idea of the Sunshine policy, I understand why it was started. However I and many others think it has only succeeded in keeping KJI in power and has allowed his government to keep the people where he wants them.

    Have you read Animal Farm or 1984? These books are embarrasingly over quoted by left wingers about how government oppress their people. However these books explain EXACTLY how the NK government operates. Keep the people working, keep them misinformed, keep them on the brink of starvation, brain wash them, make the believe their lives contribute to a greater cause but above all else, keep your army your police and your power, keep the power out of the hands of the people. Im sure life for North Koreans is already like a boot stamping on a human face for ever.

    If you honestly believe that the food NK gets from the South goes to the people before it goes to the army and police and the elite then you are out of your mind. One could argue that that army and police are the people too. Well look how far joining the army/government got Koreans during the Japanese occupation. Now they are villified as the enemy of all Korean people. What is the difference here? The difference perhaps is that the people are trained to turn on eachother, trained to root out the enemies of the people, turn their mothers in if need be. They have no choice but to point to their neighbour and scream “Traitor to the revolution!” because they have been brainwashed to do it. It’s 10 thousand times worse than anything the Japanese ever subjected the Korean people to (not that the japanese didnt do anything bad, don’t get me wrong). Sounds amazingly simlar to 1984 doesn’t it?

    The North Korean government KILLS and ENSLAVES Koreans. I want korea to succeed. I want Korea to come out of these dark times and to be a shining light of democracy in Asia. Standing up against oppression and dictatorships. This can not happen if half of the peninsula allows the other half to get away with murder, suppression of basic rights and crimes against humanity. Kim Jong Ill is a criminal, dictator and an evil CUNT (please excuse my language, there is no other way to put it). ANYONE who ignores his crimes against humanity is either brainwashed or a fool.

    In my time in South Korea i heard countless people bitch about how bad the economy is. How everything is difficult, how people are struggling to get by. If i EVER brought up North Korea with them they would agree, “yes, its a problem, we feel sorry for them, they are out brothers”. But beyond that very few I met did anything to help. To South Koreans, North Korea is a crazy little place a million miles away and has little to do with them. Thats honestly the vibe i picked up. I could be wrong but thats how it seemed to me.

    Please reply to what I have said. I respect your opinion and I would like to hear what you think. Is the Sunshine policy working? Is there any other way?

    I don’t think you’re a fool Rocco. Please don’t take any of what I have said against you. It is my opinion.

    PS. Excuse my poor spelling and writing skills. I have no time to spell check. And thank you to everyone for the great discussion. Keep it up.

  27. comment number 27 by: YoungRocco

    Ponta:

    Thanks for your posts.

    I shall address your concerns presently.

    Ponta, I would ask that you refrain from abusing quotes. Your posts certainly are cosmetically effective. But next time I would suggest some deep analysis to accompany them.

    Secondly, stand behind your contentions. Do not try to subtly shift away from them. I’ll present an instance where you shy away from your original point:

    Your contention was:

    Unfortunately the fact is humanitarian aid is not reaching to the North Korean people who needs it but is helping the regime to keep itself.

    You attempted to support your contention by this quote:

    Food aid to North Korea has
    come under criticism because the DPRK government restricts the ability of donor
    agencies to operate in the country, particularly with regard to monitoring food
    shipments, making it difficult to assess how much of each donation actually reaches

    Ponta, the problem with this quote is that it does not support your claim that food aid is not reaching the people of North Korea. All it does is say that UN food monitors do not know how the food is distributed.

    You then try to use this quote to further your claim:

    There have been anecdotal reports that food aid is diverted
    to theNorth Koreanelite, who reportedly either consume it themselves or resell it for
    profit on the black market. There are also reports that international food assistance
    has been diverted to the North Korean military

    There are a numnber of problems with your belief that this quote supports your claim. First off all, the reports are anecdotal Which means that they cannot be confirmed. Secondly, you interpret consumption by the elite and the military to mean that food is not reaching starving people. Your interpretation fails on two grounds:

    A Some of the North Korean elite are malnourished as well. If they receive food, then food is indeed going towards helping allevaite hunger in the country.

    B. North Korea has a national military service law. In other words, all able-bodied male citizens are required to serve in the military. In fact, the term of service in North Korea is five years minimum. The logical sequence is as follows:

    A. North Korean citizens are starving.
    B. North Korea’s military is comprised of North Korean citizens.
    C. Humanitarian aid is going toward feeding North Korea’s military.
    D. Therefore, humanitarian aid is feeding North Korean citizens who are
    starving.

    So Ponta, your assertion that humanitarian aid is not reaching the people fails. You have provided no evidence demonstrating that North Korean citizens are not receiving the aid.

    All you’ve done is quote five people who say they don’t know!

    (In fact, if you believe that humanitarian aid is going towards the military, you’ve actually strengthened my rebuttal.)

    Let’s proceed to your next argument:

    You attempted to challenge my assertion that South Korea welcomes North Korean citizens with open arms by quoting:

    uite the contrary: in December 2004, the Republic of Korea’s unification ministry announced that it was slashing the government’s per-capita resettlement stipend for North Korean newcomers by almost two-thirds — from $28,000 to $10,000 — and that it would be stepping up its screening and interrogations of would-be resettlers

    Now, Ponta, allow me to retort with a quote of my own:

    Until 2004, the refugees received a generous financial package that dated from the early days of the refugee program when individual defectors were lavished with support to make a political statement about the wealth and generosity of the South Korean government compared to the impoverished North. Each head of household received a cash stipend of $32,000, paid in three installments, and dependents received an additional $6,500 each. The South Korean government, recognizing that such large cash payments were helping to fuel expensive payments to brokers charging high fees for facilitating movement from North Korea and China to South Korean consulates, has taken steps to reduce the cash component of the support package. Individuals now receive about $10,000 in cash upfront, with the $25,000 balance going towards direct payments for subsidized housing in public rental apartments, support for education and further vocational training, and job placement.

    Reference: http://www.refugeesinternational.org

    Ponta, do you see how easy it was for me to discredit you? You’ve got to evaluate what you read critically. You can’t just accept quotes at facevalue.

    Ah, this post is getting a little long.

    I’ll address the rest of your concerns in my following post.

    Thank You.

  28. comment number 28 by: YoungRocco

    Ponta:

    I am a man of my word.

    Here is the continuation of my response to your post:

    My opinion is that condemnations will upset the evil regime, so that there may be a greater chance to reform. Hypocritical policy just increase the North Korean victims.

    Ponta, this is just your opinion.

    You can’t be serious about believing that condemnations will make Kim Jong Il so “upset” that he’ll just up and abolish a system that keeps him in power.

    Ponta, no one is disputing that the North Korean regime should be condemned. However, to say at one and the same time that the regime should be condemned while at the same time refusing food aid is hypocritical.

    Can’t wait to hear from you.

  29. comment number 29 by: tomato

    Good!

    Then let the USFK pull out of S Korea and let the Koreans who think they are so smart and superior settle the unification issue themselves. This time, no blaming foreign powers!

    BTW,

    I am not being sarcastic. I am being sincere.

    You’re attitude stinks.

  30. comment number 30 by: ponta

    Youngrocco
    thanks,

    Ponta, I would ask that you refrain from abusing quotes.

    it depends on your ability to analyze the quotes.

    Ponta, the problem with this quote is that it does not support your claim that food aid is not reaching the people of North Korea. All it does is say that UN food monitors do not know how the food is distributed.

    Okay I’ll try my best to make the quote as easy to understand as possible.

    The organization wants to monitor the food so that it can be assured that the food is distributed fairly.
    N K refuse it.
    Coupled with the nature and attitude of NK regime, it is reasonable to suppose that it is distributing the food only for the class that support the evil regime.
    Clear?
    Your belief holds only if N K is an normal country with conscience and is just shy about being monitored, but that is an absurd assumption.

    Youngrooco wrote

    A. North Korean citizens are starving.
    B. North Korea’s military is comprised of North Korean citizens.
    C. Humanitarian aid is going toward feeding North Korea’s military.
    D. Therefore, humanitarian aid is feeding North Korean citizens who are
    starving

    It only proves that NK is in such a horrible situation that even military men are starving. It does not show the food are reaching those in need.
    (By the way youngrocco, this is so elementary but I think I had better tell you. To prove your point you need to prove all the citizen are military men, and the food are reaching all the military men).

    Youngrocco wrote

    allow me to retort with a quote of my own……………www.refugeesinternational.org

    Your quote only show SK’s shabby excuse.
    All SK needs to do is arrest illegal brokers.
    And another excuse is blocked by the author I quoted.

    Quite the contrary: in December 2004, the Republic of Korea’s unification ministry announced that it was slashing the government’s per-capita resettlement stipend for North Korean newcomers by almost two-thirds — from $28,000 to $10,000 — and that it would be stepping up its screening and interrogations of would-be resettlers.

    One rationale indicated for the increased scrutiny of escapees was the possibility that spies were posing as defectors. If so, that would mark an unusual — one is tempted to say unique — expression of concern about the risks of domestic subversion by the current administration, since the Roh government has otherwise reined in longstanding police and intelligence counterespionage activities and cut back the government’s prosecution of suspected spies and agents to less than a handful of cases per year.(from ” S Korea should be ashamed”

    Youngrocco wrote

    Ponta, this is just your opinion.

    That is not just my opinion, that is also the opinion of professors I quoted, and the US government and Japanese government.

    You can’t be serious about believing that condemnations will make Kim Jong Il so “upset” that he’ll just up and abolish a system that keeps him in power.

    I am very serious about it, and the world is serious about it. That is the point of a series of UN warning against North Korea, youngrocco.

    Youngrocoo wrote

    However, to say at one and the same time that the regime should be condemned while at the same time refusing food aid is hypocritical.

    Food aid is okay as far as it reaches those in need.
    But it is not, and it is just helping the evil regime.
    We can help those in need if we monitor the food, but NK refuse it.
    We want to help but we had little choice.
    There is no hypocrisy about it.
    However, it is hypocritical to pretend that it is helping those in need while in fact it is helping the evil regime to survive.
    It is hypocritical to condemn Japan and the US while the cause of evil lies with NK.
    It is hypocritical to pretend it is welcoming the refugee while in fact it is cutting the budgets.

    You show the great gap in the perception about North Korea between South Korea and other world.

    Can’t wait to hear from you.

    The problem is you quit every time you have to admit you are in the wrong.

  31. comment number 31 by: polysics

    I love japanese people…

    http://www.filecabi.net/video/jappunked.html

  32. comment number 32 by: Matt

    I am not being sarcastic. I am being sincere.

    These writings are sincere?

    You’re cute.

    Go get em, Tiger.

    How are you doing, guy?

    Our discussions will be much more fruitful if you take the time to do your homework.

    Have an enjoyable morning.

    I’m pleased to continue working with you.

    Just helping you out, Bro.

    Take Care

    You, Ponta, SQZ, Darin and Matthew have improved tremendously under my tutelage.

    Have a great morning.

    Sweet Dreams.

    If you need any more assisstance in firming up your argument, feel free to send me another post. My door is always open.

    I’ll tread lightly while I pick apart the flaws in your statement.

    Anytime you need more guidance, just send me a note.

    Glad I could help a valued friend.

    Enjoy the rest of your day.

    Many people have addressed this to you directly, and asked you (politely!) to stop. I would suggest that if you were really sincere, then you would refrain from writing such things. Surely you could do that for a “valued friend”. Ill tell you what, if I find anything like the above in your posts from now on, I will delete the post in its entirety. Call it corrective therapy.

  33. comment number 33 by: YoungRocco

    Matt:

    Ill tell you what, if I find anything like the above in your posts from now on, I will delete the post in its entirety.

    In other words, Matt, you are engaging in censorship.

    You claim to want to foster a forum where ideas can be exchanged and yet because my opinion differs from yours, you wish to delete my posts.

    Of course, you claim that you are deleting my posts due to sarcasm, but one cannot believe that sarcasm is the reason for deleting my posts when you permit profanity, sarcasm and race-baiting when it comes from those who wish to attack Korea.

    Oh well, ho hum. It’s interesting to see how you react when a person beats you in a debate.

  34. comment number 34 by: YoungRocco

    Ponta:

    What’s up?

    The problem is you quit every time you have to admit you are in the wrong.

    Ponta, when have you ever admitted that you were in the wrong?

  35. comment number 35 by: ponta

    YoungRocco

    Ponta, when have you ever admitted that you were in the wrong?

    I make it a rule that before somebody else point out I am in the wrong, I try to admit I am in the wrong.
    And if I am not sure if I am in the right, and you are in the wrong, I do not declare you are in the wrong, because that will make me look stupid when it turns out you are in the right and I don’t like to look stupid.
    When I am not sure I just ask what you think.
    And I try not to act as if I were in higher position to educate somebody else, because that will make me look stupid when it turn out that that person know much better than me.
    On the Internet everyone is equal. I learn from you , you learn from me and the reader learn from the discussion, but people do not learn from haughty attitude instead they think that is pathetic. I don’t want to be considered as pathetic, so I try my best not to be haughty.
    Thanks

  36. comment number 36 by: Matt

    In other words, Matt, you are engaging in censorship.

    YoungRocco, I have not deleted anything that you wrote yet, but I will if I have to. I am excercising my freedom of expression to control what kind of things appear on my site.

    You claim to want to foster a forum where ideas can be exchanged and yet because my opinion differs from yours, you wish to delete my posts.

    I wrote clearly what specific statements are not permitted. None of them are opinions. I will list them again for you.

    You’re cute.

    Go get em, Tiger.

    How are you doing, guy?

    Our discussions will be much more fruitful if you take the time to do your homework.

    Have an enjoyable morning.

    I’m pleased to continue working with you.

    Just helping you out, Bro.

    Take Care

    You, Ponta, SQZ, Darin and Matthew have improved tremendously under my tutelage.

    Have a great morning.

    Sweet Dreams.

    If you need any more assisstance in firming up your argument, feel free to send me another post. My door is always open.

    I’ll tread lightly while I pick apart the flaws in your statement.

    Anytime you need more guidance, just send me a note.

    Glad I could help a valued friend.

    Enjoy the rest of your day.

    None of those things are opinions, and it is those things that I will censor.

    Of course, you claim that you are deleting my posts due to sarcasm, but one cannot believe that sarcasm is the reason for deleting my posts when you permit profanity, sarcasm and race-baiting when it comes from those who wish to attack Korea.

    I regularly delete such things, YoungRocco.

    Oh well, ho hum. It’s interesting to see how you react when a person beats you in a debate.

    Self-declared victory? Um, OK, but I think that is for third parties to decide for themselves. Anyway, if you do not want to be censored, just leave out the forbidden content. If you keep writing what has been forbidden, you become a troll, and then you disappear. Got it?

  37. comment number 37 by: bad_moon_rising

    Here is an interesting article I found today concerning the Korean obsession with racial purity. North Korea has made “racial purity” official state policy. See Deformed Babies Killed for Super Race. Evidently deformed babies include those that are not “pure” Korean.

    THE North Korean regime’s obsession with racial purity has led to the killing of disabled infants and forced abortions for women suspected of conceiving their babies by Chinese fathers, according to a growing body of testimony from defectors.

    One such account came from a 30-year-old woman who calls herself Han Myong-suk. She escaped twice and reached a safe haven in an undisclosed third country within the past year thanks to Helping Hands Korea, an American Christian group.

    She said she was sold by traffickers to a Chinese farmer near the Great Wall, and was five months pregnant by him when she was caught by the Chinese police and deported back to North Korea. There she was held in one of three female detention centres, which have been identified in the towns of Sinuju, Onsong and Chongin.

    Her account was taken down by Tim Peters, an American Christian activist who founded the group.

    “I defied the order to abort the fetus the prison authorities contemptuously called a ‘Chinese Chink’ and was badly beaten and kicked in my belly by a guard. His name was Hwang Myong-dong,” she said.

    One week later, said Ms Han, she was led to a prison clinic “where in a most blunt manner they extracted the dead child from my body”.

    A total of seven babies – five born prematurely after labour was induced – were left to die in the box. Two days later the premature babies were dead.

    The two full-term boys were still blinking, although their lips had turned blue.

    A guard battered them to death with forceps, the witness said. At the Nongpo centre in Chongjin, witnesses saw the “children of betrayers” tossed into a wicker basket, covered in plastic sheeting and left to die.

    One woman watched the killing of seven babies, taken from their mothers and left face-down on the ground within their view. After two days the guards smothered any that were still alive. “Guards would say the mothers had to see and hear their babies die because they were Chinese,” the report said.

    This report also shows a general lack of caring on the part of the Chinese concerning the abortion of fetuses and murder of children of Chinese descent.