Occidentalism
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Email from a fan

November 30th, 2006 . by Matt

I received this email from a ‘fan’. In it he says that Occidentalism is racist on the level of a Nazi website, and that the problem with the world is people like me with sites like mine.

(note: if i sent this to the wrong address, then I am
very sorry. I am writing to an address I believe that
is the email of the starter of the site Occidentalism.
If you are not that person, don’t bother reading the
rest, just delete this message. If not, read on)

Shame on you.

I know that Korea has it’s faults. Yes, I am Korean.
But, can’t everyone just forget about rasicm? I mean,
it’s people like you who spread hate and disaster
amongest us. Its really, very, sad. Every country has
it’s faults. Right now Korea is being run by a
not-too-smart president. But Japan has it’s faults
too. And that’s no excuse to have an anti-korean site.

This is almost as bad, or as bad as the Nazi site I
stumbled upon.

And please, I know that you might post this on, and
laugh at my mistakes, and say that this e-mail is
ridiclous. But remeber to put this part on as well. I
will be checking on your site to see if you did do it.
And if you don’t post it, it doesn’t matter.

You know, it’s just people like you who spread hate.
There are people like you in America, Korea, Japan,
Australia, France, South Africa, India, everywhere. It
is not Korea’s fault, or Japan’s fault.

Please, stop this ridiculous site. It is disgusting.
This is not a hate mail. I know, this is another thing
that you will point out and laugh at. This is not hate
mail? What a hypocrite!!

No, I am writing to tell you that I believe that
racism is not the way to go.

If I did not make a difference, well, at least I
tried. If I did, I am happy to make a difference.

But whatever you do, do not ignore this message. And
lastly, I am sorry if you look at this message and
laugh me off. I truely am. Not for me, not for you,
but for how the world is completely messed up.

What a truely horrible site.

And one more thing.

I’ll bet that you post up only the most vulgar emails
from people imploring you to tear down this site. Post
this email as well, please.

-Anonymous-

I am not going to respond to this point by point. I think the readers know the difference between the reality, and what is written in that email.


142 Responses to “Email from a fan”

  1. comment number 1 by: myCoree

    Matt, your comment makes even a Korean like me.

    Most Koreans even in the late colonial period were unable to speak Japanese. Koreans call Sushi ‘Kimchobap’ (and Sashimi is called ‘Chobap’). Therefore, Kimbap is a shortening of ‘Kimchobap’. Kimbap differs from ‘Kimchobap’ because it does not contain fish, and uses meat or vegetables instead.

    As far as I know, Most Koeans in those days could speak Japanese without much difficulty. In Korea, Sushi is called ‘Chobap’ which means ‘vinegar-contained rice’. And, Sashimi is called ‘Hoe(膾)’.
    And,…’Kimchobap’ essentially means ‘Vinegar-contained Kimbap’.

    I don’t think it has anything to do with hostility. /blockquote>
    I agree with you. But, there are some tendency to change foreign words (especally if it’s from Japan) into Korean.

    Dewa, matta.

  2. comment number 2 by: myCoree

    Matt, your comment makes “confusing” even a Korean like me.

    Sorry

  3. comment number 3 by: ponta

    As far as I know, Most Koeans in those days could speak Japanese without much difficulty. In Korea,

    II think that is another myth.
    MyCoree, do you know why North Korea abducted Japanese citizens?
    According to Jenkin, who returened from North Korea,North Korea abducted Japanese because she needed teachers of Japanese language.
    Why does North Korea need a teacher of Japanese language if there were a
    lot of Koreans who can speak Japanese without much difficulty?

    Here is a streetcar map from the 1930s at Seoul from Gusts Of Popular Feeling The name of the stations is written in Hangule.
    (BTW Hangule was not used as an official document before the colonization,
    “In July, 1894, Mr Otori (a Japanese) made the useful innovation of publishing the Gazette in clear type, and in the following January it appeared in a mixture of Chinese hieroglyphs and En-mun, the “vulgar script” of Korea, and became intelligible to the common people.”
    p374 Isabella L. Bird )
    Why does a map written in Hangule if Koreans were deprived of Korean language?

    I think Japanese government wanted Koreans to “speak Japanese without much difficulty ” as you say but the fact is,

    According to statistics by government general, Koreans who could understand Japanese were as follows.
    year・・・・・ rate
     1913・・・・・0.61%
     1939・・・・・13.9%
     1940・・・・・15.57%
    1941・・・・・16.61%
     1942・・・・・19.94%
     1943・・・・・ 22.15%

    Japanese was an official language just as English was and is an official language of phillipines.

    English is one of the official language in the Philippines. It was imposed by Americans during the U.S. intervention and colonization of the archipelago. …wiki
    Korean people spoke Japanese at school but outside shool, they spoke Korean.

  4. comment number 4 by: myCoree

    Thanks, ponta.
    Your statistical data is very impressive to me.It makes me feel more thankful.

    1942・・・・・ 19.94%
     1943・・・・・ 22.15%

    My father is on the 70’s. 70~80 yr-old generations in Korea were obliged to speak Japanese in school. I “guessed” that they must have been little difficulty in speaking Jananese if it was possible to proceed their schoolworks and communicate with it.
    But,it is easiest foreign language to Korean. I can understand most comments in Japanese ^_^

    I just want to point out any misses in your ‘talk’ though I don’t feel good when I read most of these comment.
    Go ahead.

    안녕

  5. comment number 5 by: ponta

    My father is on the 70’s. 70~80 yr-old generations in Korea were obliged to speak Japanese in school

    You might want to Keep it secret;otherwise, your father might be bashed for having been pro-Japanese when everyone else spoke Korean, either rejecting to speak Japanese or having no opportunity to learn Japanese.
    失礼致します。どうか、お気軽にコメントをしてください。いろんな意見が大切です。
    여러실례 하겠습니다. 부디 부담없이 코멘트를 해 주세요.여러가지 의견이 중요합니다. .
    Excuse me. Feel free to commnet. Various opinions are important.

  6. comment number 6 by: myCoree

    You might want to Keep it secret;otherwise, your father might be bashed for having been pro-Japanese

    ^_^ What do you mean ? Do you mean he may be blamed for having done pro-Japan behavior? My father was an ordinary citizen “民” who lived his life as a farmer. It doesn’t matter whether he spoke J or K. And, there were many who spoke Japanese at that time.
    As for pro-Japanese group, It’s too much late to punish them. “Why now?” “For what?” And, I have a skeptic idea that there will be much more pro-American groups to be punished if Korea becomes communized or the ‘great empire’ USA collapsed someday. ^_^
    It’ time to go to my office.

    So long.

  7. comment number 7 by: Matt

    And, I have a skeptic idea that there will be much more pro-American groups to be punished if Korea becomes communized or the ‘great empire’ USA collapsed someday. ^_^

    I have the same idea.

  8. comment number 8 by: dogbert

    I do not deny there is a trend to eliminate Japanese derived words from the Korean language.

    I actually own a couple of (Korean) books on this subject. There is something of a movement to inform people of what foreign loanwords came via Japanese (such as many construction-related vocabulary items) and have people stop using them.

  9. comment number 9 by: tomato

    I guess the Japanese administration was like the Soviet occupation of its surrounding nations. Sure, the Soviets probably brought modern civlization to them, but boy, Soviet rule…I’m not sure anyone would have liked that. Many of them can speak Russian now, but I’m sure in several decades, the younger generations will not be learning Russian, maybe for the exception of close cousins like Ukraine and Belarus.

    And pre-war Japan was surely authoritarian, and during the war it was hyped up to totalitarian rule, forcing its citizens live in poverty to fight a prolonged war (this is also kind of like the USSR during the cold war). Everyone must be glad that system didn’t last long as the USSR.

    But I don’t think there were any traitor-of-the-people collaborators in Korea, since during most of the Japanese era there was little opposition (although the nationalist S Korean regime seems to teach otherwise), and Koreans who made it up the ranks of the Japanese system weren’t engaged in toruturing Korean freedom fighters or such. Rather, those people were hard-working and decent people, and I believe many of them contributed to post WWII development of S Korea.

  10. comment number 10 by: Two Cents

    Matt,
    As tomato says, sushi does not have to have fish in it.
    http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E7%94%BB%E5%83%8F:Sushi3.jpg
    This is a kanasai-style makizushi (巻き寿司:rolled sushi).

    Sushi originates in SE Asia and was introduced to Japan in the 8th century. It was originally fermented. Rice was placed inside gutted fish, and left to ferment. This style of sushi (熟寿司: narezushi, or ripened sushi) is still a delicacy in Japan, the most famous being Funazushi (鮒寿司: fish-sushi) of Lake Biwa(http://www.rakuten.co.jp/hokkori/473518/) and heshiko (へしこ) of Fukui prefecture. These are not at all like the sushi you know. Then, eventually, rice came to be eaten with the fish, so only the fish was fermented, pickled in vinegar, or cooked. These evolved into the 押し寿司 (pressed sushi) or 箱寿司 (box sushi) in the Kansai (Osaka & Kyoto)area. In the Edo period, people started to eat にぎり寿司 (hand-pressed sushi) at sushi stands in Edo (Tokyo), and these were prepared on the spot using fresh fish. This is the most widely known form of sushi today. The sushi rolled in laver (巻き寿司 or のり巻き) doesn’t become popular until the middle of the 19th century, because laver used to be an expensive delicacy. The norimaki at the time were eaten as 精進料理 (Buddist-style = vegetarian), so they did not contain fish.

    Laver production in Korea in its modern form was introduced by Masanosuke Kaneko (金子政之助) in 1928, and the laver produced was exported almost entirely to Japan proper, so I doubt rolled sushi could have been popularized widely during the annexation period (a special-occasion menu, perhaps?). After WWII, exports to Japan ceased altogether, and so laver manufacturers had to find ways to boost consumption in Korea. My guess is that this is the period when kimbap spread explosively. However, I hear that old people in Korea seem to know the word “norimaki,” so it must have been popularized initially as “norimaki,” then later changed to kimbap.

    dogbert,
    I have heard similar efforts are being made at Posco steelworks. They seem to want to wipe out history in which Japan actually made a positive contribution to Korean society after the war.

  11. comment number 11 by: tomato

    My guess is that this is the period when kimbap spread explosively.

    Strange that in the English Wikipedia, Kimbap is explained as traditional Korean food….I’m sure that in Japan, “curry rice” and “tonkatsu” have been around longer than the Kimbap in Korea, but I don’t think any Japanese will call them “traditional”. It’s definitely “yoshoku” (=western food)…and I’m 100% confident that no Japanese think they invented curry or katsu…no need of nationalism here.

  12. comment number 12 by: myCoree

    But I don’t think there were any traitor-of-the-people collaborators in Korea, since during most of the Japanese era there was little opposition (although the nationalist S Korean regime seems to teach otherwise),

    Do you know Lee Wan-yong(李完用) in Korea? He is considered as the symbol of traitor-of-the-people collaborators. He earned enormous rewards from Japan for ‘selling’ Korea. Korean government has tried to deprive his descendents of all his assets but faced many obstacles in the legal respect. I learned a lot of independence movements through the colonial period (although you seem to treat it slightly with willingness)

    and Koreans who made it up the ranks of the Japanese system weren’t engaged in torturing Korean freedom fighters or such. Rather, those people were hard-working and decent people,

    Who knows? Then, who did torture or kill them?

    and I believe many of them contributed to post WWII development of S Korea.

    Partially right. Most of the intelligent pro-Japanese group in Korea at that time took a major role in founding a pro-American regime after 1945. One man who had been a member of pro-Japanese group changed into the Liberation Army at second, the Red Army at third, and ROK Army at last. He had two names -Takaki Masao(高木正雄) in Japanese and Park Jung-hee(朴正熙) in Korean. He was the 4th president of Korea. He was a real cameleon. He himself proved the Darwin’s theory ‘the survival of the fittiest’.

    P.S.

    the nationalist S Korean regime…
    no need of nationalism …

    Please don’t label any persons or nations. Are you a ‘Labelist’? It’s very useful in treating goods or data. But careful about persons. Do you want to be labeled? You don’t feel good if I label you as a ‘neo-emperialist’.
    Sorry if I hurt you.

    So long.

  13. comment number 13 by: tomato

    Korean government has tried to deprive his descendents of all his assets but faced many obstacles in the legal respect.

    Usually in democratic countries, you don’t punish descendants. It’s usually a constitutional right. Is your system still medieval or something? I would call this a kind of ethnic cleansing…I see nothing but crude nationalism working here…call it “labeling” if you like, but there’s no denying it.

  14. comment number 14 by: nigelboy

    Korean government has tried to deprive his descendents of all his assets but faced many obstacles in the legal respect.

    Maybe because it’s unconstitutional.

    Article 13 [nulla poena sine lege, double jeopardy, retroactive law, family liability]

    (1) No citizen may be prosecuted for an act which does not constitute a crime under the law in force at the time it was committed, nor may he be placed in double jeopardy.
    (2) No restrictions may be imposed upon the political rights of any citizen, nor may any person be deprived of property rights by means of retroactive legislation.
    (3) No citizen shall suffer unfavorable treatment on account of an act not of his own doing but committed by a relative.

  15. comment number 15 by: ponta

    myCoree

    He earned enormous rewards from Japan for ‘selling’ Korea.

    Are you sure he earned enormous reward?

    Watch How You Use ‘Traitor’

    In fact, Seo Jae-pil’s Dongnip Sinmun (Independence Newspaper) never wrote a single line of criticism against Lee Wan-yong. Now, how should we interpret Lee, who has fallen from a foreign affairs expert with a broad scope to a traitor after the Eulsa Protectorate Treaty between Korea and Japan was signed? Maybe, he symbolizes our modern history, which we have ruined due to confusion and lack of ability.

    MyCorre wrote

    I learned a lot of independence movements through the colonial period

    Well some of Korean historians are begging to realize the truth, or at least an another perspective.

    교과서포럼 근현대사 대안교과서 시안 제4장 ‘국민국가의 건설’은 “해방은 느닷없이 왔다”는 문장으로 시작한다. “일본의 패망에 대비하려고 여운형이 조직한 ‘건국동맹’ 같은 비밀결사가 없었던 것은 아니지만, 그것은 극히 예외적인 움직임이었다.” 글이 주로 ‘국내’에 초점을 맞추고는 있지만 그렇다고 ‘국외’ 부분을 따로 조명하지도 않는다. 따라서 시안을 보면 광복은 외세의 선물인 듯 받아들일 수밖에 없다.link

    Liberation came unintentionally. Though there was a movement like “the founding of a country alliance by 呂運亨 , preparing for the Japan’s defeat, it was rather an exception…..

    The author was attacked physically by the opponent to defend the honorable Korean history, though.

    MyCorry wrote

    who did torture or kill them?

    Lee Hong Gyu ?

    The survivors say that Lee Hong Gyu was more cruel and barbaric to his fellow countrymen than his Japanese masters
    link

    Actually the large number of Prosecution Clerks were Koreans. In a way they were parts of Japanese system.,

  16. comment number 16 by: empraptor

    ponta,

    Since you seem to have a grasp of Korean, maybe you could translate the rest of the Korean article you linked to. It seems the rest of the article is about how the statement in the first paragraph you quoted is wrong. “하지만 실제 역사에선” that begins the second paragraph I think means “But in actual history”, implying that the rest of the article contradicts the first paragraph.

  17. comment number 17 by: bulgasari

    Tomato:

    But I don’t think there were any traitor-of-the-people collaborators in Korea, since during most of the Japanese era there was little opposition

    Actually, there’s enough evidence out there to suggest that there was a lot of passive resistance to the Japanese, but in the end, that’s all there was, for the most part. Credit the Japanese police with doing there job very well – anyone plotting anything against the Japanese government was ususally found out (the same situation existed in Taiwan). There were so many informers out there to help the police that most conspirators would be found out soon enough. As for those who actively fought, most of them (after the 3.1 movement in 1919) did so outside of the country, and I certainly agree their role has been exaggerated greatly in the South (and especially North) Korean historical mythos.

    As for traitors, keep in mind that tens of thousands of Koreans served in the police (serving in the army or police is a tried and true tactic of many colonizers to divide and conquer – just look at what the British did in Burma). This was one of the most divisive aspects of the colonial era, and the fact that so many of these people were recruited to serve in the national police during the US administration (1945-48) is what led to many of them being brutally (and I do mean brutally) murdered during the autumn harvest uprisings in 1946. Simply said, there was a great deal of animosity towards these people in the immediate postwar period – they were considered by many at the time to be traitors.

    Ponta:

    That map of the tram system is something that I’d thought about and your comment reminded me of it: I think the better caption would be “A map of the tram system in the 1930s”. I know I wrote “from” the 1930s, but I have to admit, there’s no proof of that, and considering the layout of the map (It does look more modern than the ’30s, don’t you think?) it may have been made at a later time. I’ll amend the post to reflect that (which would mean changing the preposition “from” to “in”). It may well be from that time, but it’s just as likely that it’s not, and I should have worded it more carefully. Thanks for pointing it out.

    As for that article about Lee Wan-yong, it’s pretty weak. “Korea” suggested annexation? Right, just like America attacked the twin towers because John Walker Lindh was a member of the taliban. One person does not equal a country (despite Lee’s position of power).

    As for this:

    In fact, Seo Jae-pil’s Dongnip Sinmun (Independence Newspaper) never wrote a single line of criticism against Lee Wan-yong. Now, how should we interpret Lee, who has fallen from a foreign affairs expert with a broad scope to a traitor after the Eulsa Protectorate Treaty between Korea and Japan was signed? Maybe, he symbolizes our modern history, which we have ruined due to confusion and lack of ability.

    Allow me to reword it to show how pointless it is:

    In fact, in the 1980s, the New York Times never wrote a single line of criticism against Saddam Hussein. Now, how should we interpret Hussein, who has fallen from a valued ally in his war against an Iran ruled by Islamic fundamentalists to an enemy of America after his invasion of Kuwait? Maybe he symbolizes American history, which has been punctuated by support for less-than-democratic dictators.

    Or to make the point clearer, the Dongnip Sinmun folded 6 years before the Eulsa treaty was signed in 1905, and 11 years before annexation – hardly something to guage Korean perceptions of Lee Wan-yong’s actions at those times by.

    Why can’t people who use this article as “proof” that Korea willingly gave up her sovereignty see these obvious discrepancies?

  18. comment number 18 by: tomato

    bulgasari,

    This was one of the most divisive aspects of the colonial era, and the fact that so many of these people were recruited to serve in the national police during the US administration (1945-48) is what led to many of them being brutally (and I do mean brutally) murdered during the autumn harvest uprisings in 1946. Simply said, there was a great deal of animosity towards these people in the immediate postwar period – they were considered by many at the time to be traitors.

    The uprising: could it be connected to partisan activities of communists, or did someone spark hatred? Sounds like what happened in Yugoslavia. There probably was underlying hatred between the Serbs, Croats and the Muslims, but killing off neighbors is something way off the line. I think someone played a role in igniting hatred in the massacre you’re talking about, which could, like you say, to be interpreted as the people disliking Japanese rule (I’m pretty sure they were), but killing off fellow Koreans is way beyond justification. What were the Koreans to do during the Japanese era? Engage in a general strike against the Japanese? Become terrorists?

    I think the people who sparked the hatred leading to the killings were agitators close to or actually being criminals, like Milosevic was. They used the underlying hatred to cause mass hysteria. And the people in Korea today who still endulge in the agitation by listing “Japanese collaborators” and publicly dishonoring them, even trying to punish their descendants…just gives me the chills.

  19. comment number 19 by: ponta

    empraptor
    Thanks You are right. the author of the artcile as well as the leftist historians are furious about the view. And as a result he was physically attace as I showed in another link.

    bulgasari
    Thanks
    The article I posted is valuable in that it debunk Korean accusation about 李完用.
    Another point you brought up is that just because a few people supported Japan for the annexation, that does not means that the nation as a whole supported Japan. Am I correct?
    I think Korea needs to reexamine the largest political pary Iljinhoe, which it claimed to have a millioin of member. the major Korean historian misrepresented it as usual and say it was just a puppet political party, but it was nore than that as Bruce Coming confirms.
    In my opinion , when the largest progesssive party puhed for the reformatioon through Japan’s help, I think it is safe to say that the nation supported Japan’s move.
    Welcome, Japan,IljinhoeNotice also that the ordinary citizens around the gate are as ususal as ever.It is not like protesters around the US base as of now.

  20. comment number 20 by: empraptor

    ponta,

    My Korean vocabulary is not large enough to be able to understand articles on history. But seeing as how the article you linked is opposed to your statement, would it not be proper to show why they are wrong rather than just calling them leftist and assuming that that makes them wrong?

    Academics resorting to physical attack in order to uphold a dogma is shameful, but maybe you could get back to the issue. Showing they are violent does not logically show views they hold to be false.

  21. comment number 21 by: ponta

    empraptor
    Thanks

    Showing they are violent does not logically show views they hold to be false.

    True. And my point is not to prove that the leftist are wrong, my point is rather that some Koreans are beginning to realize a new perspective and the leftist opposed it by physically attacking him.

    And it is I who am curious why the leftist are correct..

    When more than 300,000 young Korean men voluntarily applied for Japanese army, I think it is plausible to say the independent movement was
    an exception as the author of history textbook claimed.

    If the resistance was a rule among Korean people as many of the leftist Korean historians seem to claim, there must have been an uproar between 300,000 Korean young people who applied for Japanaese army and the member of the group for the independence. Have you ever heard of it?

    Some people say those who resisted were arrested. Yes maybe, but who knows all those arrested were resistance for the independence. There are criminals in every society., rapist, thief, etc. And spy would be arrested in every society. Russian spy is a hero in Russia but he would be arrested in England.

    I want to know the name of the group for the independence in the peninsula and the how large the group was. Only then i can start examining their claim. Even in India where England harshly ruled Indians, there were famous groups for independence that is known now.

    Would it not be proper to show why the leftist is right even when the author is physically attacked by the leftist?

  22. comment number 22 by: AkihitoMojito

    Hello, Folks:

    I’ve been out for a long time…woah, this discussion has gone one for a long time. Kind of surprised people haven’t moseyed on over to the DVD issue in China discussion. I read about China’s attempts to set the standard in the IHT a few days back and I think Matt’s analysis is spot on.

    Ummm…

    Ponta:

    When more than 300,000 young Korean men voluntarily applied for Japanese army, I think it is plausible to say the independent movement was
    an exception as the author of history textbook claimed

    I think it’s pretty easy to explain why so many Koreans joined the army:

    1. Army jobs are a good source of employment for those who are uneducated. Koreans under Japanese rule were discriminated against in education, and so many Koreans probably joined the army to escape unemployment.

    2. Even racist armies are somewhat meritocratic in nature. Why? Well, an army that promotes intelligent officers willl win more wars. I’d wager that so many Korean men joined the Japanese army because the army was less discriminatory than the private sector.

    3. Propaganda. The Japanese portrayed the United States as evil. It’s easy to recruit soldiers when you are fighting evil. Moreover, Imperial Japan shared some similarities with modern day IslamoFascism. (Kamikaze Fighters, anyone?) When you combine a warlike culture, heavy propaganda and religious fanaticism, you get enthusiastic, if not brainwashed, soldiers.

    4. I recently read an essay on Black soldiers who served in the U.S. army duing WWI and WWII. There were thousands of black soldiers who served. I was kind of confused about that situation because it didn’t make sense to me how so many black soldiers could have fought for a country that treated them so terribly.

    I kept on reading, and as I read, I came to realize that it made sense for those soldiers to fight for the United States. Many Black soldiers fought for the U.S. because they believed that bravery and intelligence displayed on the battlefield would prove to the white people that they were worthy of equal treatment. I think that Koreans served in the Japanese army for the same reasons. They probably believed that by serving in the Imperial Army, they were demonstrating their bravery, intelligence, strength, etc, and that by doing so, they could make a more convincing argument for Korean independence or at the very least for equality betweeen Koreans and the Japanese.

    5. Education. Military jobs are a good way to get a low cost education. In the military, a person can study the sciences, techonology, foreign cultures, etc for a fraction of the cost of attending a university.

  23. comment number 23 by: AkihitoMojito

    It’s so old! Oh well, let’s continue.

    Tomato:

    However global price-fixing conspiracies are not so common.

    They are quite commmon. In fact, price fixing is more common that patent infringement. While patent infringement is only profitable in industries where intellectual property commands a premium, price fixing–or collusion for the more educated–is profitable in all industries where competition lowers prices. There are more laws against collusion than IP theft.

    But I digress. In any event you still lose because Sony itself has been indicted in the same probe that targeted Samsung.

    http://www.betanews.com/article/DOJ_Investigating_Sony_for_RAM_Pricefixing/1162328915

    GarlicBreath:

    Who is the bigger thief? SAMSUNG.

    Bigger Thief. Hmm. Okay. But my point wasn’t to put Samsung on a higher moral pedestal than Sony. My goal was to demonstrate that Sony also steals intellectual propery. Since you said that Samsung is the bigger thief, you’ve just admitted that Sony is a thief too. Good. This is all I wanted.

    AkihitoMojito, market cap and invester value are not the same thing.

    Investor Value is not mentioned in the article you linked. My point still stands, Samsung is 2.5 times more valuable than Sony. Moreover, its superior stock price is underpinned by its superior profits.

    Market Cap is a good indicator for a company’s success or failure. Samsung’s Market Cap is higher than Sony’s because Samsung is a more successful company. Samsung has more employees, has higher profits, has a higher stock price, has a higher rate of stock price growth, has accelerated dramatically in consumer recognition and has seized leadership in high growth industries. (Plasma TV sets and Mobile Phones).

    Sony on the other hand has suffered numerous setbacks. In addition to its legal woes, Sony has completely lost it’s position in the music player business to Apple Computer, and is quickly losing its position in the videogame market to Microsoft and Nintendo. My Point: Samsung is better and is improving. Sony is worse and is getting worse.

    As a sidenote, you’ll have to provide reasons why you believe Sony is the better company. Trying to undermine my argument is only half the battle. You also have to support your side.

    In fact its well known that Samsung is under values because investors dont place a high value on Samsung.

    You’re absolutely wrong here, but it doesn’t matter. You cannot dispute that Samsung’s market value is higher than Sony’s. If Investor’s don’t place a high value on Samsung, then they place an even lower value on Sony because Son’y market cap is lower than Samsung’s. In fact, a leading stock invesmtnent columnist just trashed Sony on Monday:

    http://www.fool.com/news/commentary/2006/commentary06121108.htm?ref=foolwatch

    The most damninng part is the consumer confidence segment of the piece. Sony’s most valuable asset, it’s reputation, is declining. Samsung’s reputation is only getting better.

    Ehh, this topic is pretty much dead anyway, and I apologize if I annoyed anyone by bringing it up. I think I proved my point well though.

  24. comment number 24 by: tomato

    Mojito,

    You’re talking to the wrong person. I’ve never made that comment about global price fixing. Nor do I claim Sony is great or Samsung sucks.

  25. comment number 25 by: ponta

    They probably believed that by serving in the Imperial Army, they were demonstrating their bravery, intelligence, strength, etc,

    There was a Korean soldier who was a hero among Japanese and Koreans.
    He led the troop and under him, Japanese soldiers fought. So it is understandable that many Koreans wanted to be like him.

    and that by doing so, they could make a more convincing argument for Korean independence

    That is a logical leap due to your distorted perception influenced by the leftist historians.
    . I know there are some African-American thinker who insist African American community should gain the independence of USA, but I have no reason to believe that those African-American soldiers wanted to gain the independence by joining the army.

    or at the very least for equality between Koreans and the Japanese.

    Maybe, I hear some Koreans felt the identity crisis. Many Koreans thought they were Japanese but there were native Japanese who used racial slur again them. That made the Korean people to become more Japanese. And it is understandable that there are some Koreans who applied for Japanese army to prove that they are really Japanese

    However, the point is , the fact that there were more than 300,000 young Korean men who voluntarily applied for Japanese Army when Tojou was a prime minister shows that there was few resistance ,if any, contrary to common dogma among young Korean people.

  26. comment number 26 by: GarlicBreath

    AkihitoMojito=youngrocco=troll

  27. comment number 27 by: GarlicBreath

    Youngrocco said:

    In fact, price fixing is more common that patent infringement.

    Care to back this up. Didn’t think so.

  28. comment number 28 by: GarlicBreath

    Youngrocco said

    Bigger Thief. Hmm. Okay. But my point wasn’t to put Samsung on a higher moral pedestal than Sony. My goal was to demonstrate that Sony also steals intellectual propery. Since you said that Samsung is the bigger thief, you’ve just admitted that Sony is a thief too. Good. This is all I wanted.

    FALSE youngrocco. You siad:

    Looking at the data above, while playing particularly close attention to the first case, I think a convincing argument can be made that Sony is actually the bigger thief of intellectually property. To date, I have never heard of Samsung having to pay anywhere near 97 million dollars in a patent infringement lawsuit case.

    I was in fact showing you that Samsung steals. Your point was that Sony was a “bigger thief” and I proved you wrong.

    Youngrocco, you dont read what anybody writes or even what you write, all you do is plant your korean flag and say:

    I think I proved my point well though.

    You haven’t proven anything youngrocco.

  29. comment number 29 by: bad_moon_rising

    AkihitoMojito wrote:
    Samsung… has accelerated dramatically in consumer recognition

    Unfortunately, Samsung hasn’t “accelerated dramatically” enough for the average American to take notice, at least not this year.

    Sony on Top in Annual ‘Best Brands’ Harris Poll for Seventh Consecutive Year

    Sony tops the list in the annual Harris Poll of “best brands” for an impressive seventh consecutive year. Dell retains its No. 2 spot, while Coca-Cola, previously in the fourth position, moves up to No. 3.

    http://www.harrisinteractive.com/harris_poll/index.asp?PID=682

    AkihitoMojito wrote:
    Samsung… has higher profits

    Where do these profits primarily come from?

    Sunghae Park, manager of the public relations group at Samsung’s semiconductor business, notes that 70 per cent of Samsung’s profits, though only 30 per cent of its revenues, are still generated by the company’s semiconductor business.

    Ars Technica notes that this is hardly the first time price-fixing allegations have hit the electronics industry. Samsung paid a $300 million fine for fixing RAM prices only a few years ago and is currently under investigation for artificially inflating RAM prices again.

    http://tech.yahoo.com/blogs/null/10227

    It is no leap of logic to realize that Samsung is basically making most of its profits from price fixing in the semiconductor business. However, the semiconductor business might not be so lucrative for the Koreans in the future.

    $14 billion memory chip plant planned by Elpida. Elpida Memory, the sole Japanese maker of computer memory chips, plans to build a ¥1.6 trillion yen, or $14 billion, factory in Taiwan in an effort to overtake Samsung Electronics as the industry’s largest producer.

    “Elpida is very confident about the memory chip market and has a positive outlook,” said Jay Kim, an analyst at Hyundai Securities in Seoul. “For Korean chip makers, they have to watch out as Elpida could emerge as a major competitor.”

    http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/12/07/bloomberg/sxelpida.php

    Pretty much everyone that makes flat panels, with the exception of Sony and Matsushita, is being probed in a multinational investigation that spans from the United States to Japan to Korea.

    Take away flat-panel displays and semiconductors (price fixing) and you pretty much take away most of Samsung’s profits.

    AkihitoMojito wrote:
    Sony… is quickly losing its position in the videogame market to Microsoft and Nintendo

    Sony is not “quickly losing its position in the videogame market.”

    In North America (October 2006):
    The PlayStation 2 came in at around 235,000, with the Xbox 360 slightly disappointingly selling just under 220,000 units, the Game Boy Advance just under 170,000, and the PSP a marginally lackluster 130,000, almost a third the tally of the DS.

    http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=11648

    Worldwide (November 2006):
    Sony’s PlayStation 2, introduced in 2000, was more popular than all three of the newer machines, selling 664,000 units in the month.

    http://www.denverpost.com/business/ci_4804952

    Sony doesn’t seem to be doing too badly at the box office either.

    Sony Has Record Year at Box Office
    Sony Pictures Entertainment said Tuesday that for the first time in the history of the studio, its annual worldwide box office take exceeded $3 billion.

    In North America, Sony has sold nearly 20 percent of all movie tickets with “The Da Vinci Code,” which did more than $750 million worldwide; “Casino Royale”; “Click”; and “Talladega Nights: The Ballad of Ricky Bobby.” Each one of those movies hit the $100 million mark.

    http://www.labusinessjournal.com/article.asp?aID=04817512.5032138.1406210.3374466.3263865.322&aID2=108161

    Unfortunately Korea doesn’t seem to be doing too well these days.

    But high oil prices and a firmer won versus the U.S. dollar have raised concerns that the pace of economic growth may fall sharply in the second half of the year.

    The report showed that wholesale and retail sales, the main barometer of consumer spending, increased 2.7 percent from a year earlier, slowing sharply from the previous month’s 7.8 percent gain.

    http://english.yonhapnews.co.kr/Engnews/20061130/620000000020061130144423E3.html

    Next year’s forecast doesn’t seem to be too good either.
    Economic growth will cool to 4.4 percent in 2007 from 5 percent this year.

    http://joongangdaily.joins.com/200612/13/200612132151432939900090509051.html

    I think I proved my point well though.

    That you have. To quote Mark Twain, “The rumors of [Sony’s] death have been greatly exaggerated.”

  30. comment number 30 by: GarlicBreath

    Youngrocco said:

    You cannot dispute that Samsung’s market value is higher than Sony’s.

    Yes its well know that Samsdung’s market cap is bigger then Sony. That is not in dispute. In fact nobody is disputing that. Quit it with the red herrings.

    If Investor’s don’t place a high value on Samsung, then they place an even lower value on Sony because Son’y market cap is lower than Samsung’s

    Nonsence youngrocco. First the market is not just made of Samsung and Sony. It is not a zero-sum game. And you are just repeting the same red herring.

    Anyway, Sony does have a lower market cap but that only shows that Sony is a smaller company. If you want to congradulate yourself that Samdung is bigger then Sony, then go for it champ.

    I predict Samsung will go the way of Dr hwang-woo suck.

  31. comment number 31 by: AkihitoMojito

    GarlicBreath,

    I am putting you on notice: I will ignore each and every single post you write until you decide to stop trolling. There is no reason for namecalling.

    Badmoon,

    Your argument is flaccid. All of your premises can be broadly placed into these five categories:

    1. Outside of the Scope.
    2. Displays ignorance of economics.
    3. Displays ignorance of Samsung.
    4. Displays ignorance of the electronics market.
    5. Attempts to make a generalization out of a single incident.

    Most of your arguments fall into one or more categories.

    My argument shall adhere to the following structure: I will point out that you are wrong, give a succinct explanantion for why you are wrong and then follow up with facts and figures which reveal the truth.

    1. AkihitoMojito:

    has accelerated dramatically in consumer recognition

    Badmoon:

    Unfortunately, Samsung hasn’t “accelerated dramatically” enough for the average American to take notice, at least not this year.

    Your attempt at rebuttal fails because it is outside the scope of my argument. My point was that Samsung consumer recognition has grown, and you responded with a survey taken of American households. Your argument fails because America is not the only market for electronics. Also, your data is too narrow in scope. You reference the United States. The data I shall present takes a worldwide approach:

    http://bwnt.businessweek.com/brand/2006/

    Samsung Interbrand/Businessweek Value Ranking: 20
    Sony Interbrand Businessweek Value Ranking 28

    My list ranks brand value around the world yours only deals with the United States. In terms of Brand Value and Image improvement, Samsung is the clear winner.

    2. AkihitoMojito

    Samsung has higher Profits

    Badmoon

    Where do these profits primarily come from

    It is no leap of logic to realize that Samsung is basically making most of its profits from price fixing in the semiconductor business

    This is the softest part of your argument. It fails for two reasons.

    1. My argument was never that Samsung is the more moral company, my arugment is that Samsung is the superior company. We can both agree that a company’s profits are an essential measure of determining success and thus, superiority. Samsung has superior profits, so it is the superior company. Again, my argument is not about which company is more moral, my arugment is about which company is superior and profits are a larger weight in that equation.

    2. If Price-Fixing were the main engine of Samsung’s growth, then the Federal Injuntion issued against Samsung would have sent its stock price tumbling. Investors, fearing a complete meltdown in Samsung profitably would have bailed.

    They didn’t.

    Instead Samsung stock continues its upward climb. While Sony continues to underperform its competitors.

    3. You’re guessing about the price-fixing part. How do I know? Easy. You don’t have a single fact or figure backing up what you say. To what extent were prices lowered? What would they have been if price-fixing were not a factor? You haven’t the foggiest idea what the answers to these questions are. You are guessing.

    3b. If Samsung profits from price fixing….well, at least Samsung profits from its price-fixing. Sony is being investigated in the DOJ probe for price-fixing as well. However, Sony profts fell 94% last quarter.

    4. The injunction against Samsung was for supply side price-fixing. Samsung colluded with other DRAM chip companies to low-ball its components suppliers. Your argument fails because it pre-supposes that low prices are the main contributor to Samsung profits.

    The facts of the matter speak otherwise:

    1. Growth in Demand for Chips.

    The growth dynamics for both types of memory chips looks tip-top. Researcher Gartner Dataquest expects global DRAM sales this year to rise 14% to $28.7 billion and NAND sales 29% to $15.4 billion.

    2. Research and Development

    Samsung has excelled in the high-stake competition by investing billions into new and advanced chip-making equipment and research

    3. Demand Side Increases

    If you look at the trend from the start of this year, DRAM prices are actually rising. The average price for a 512-megabit DRAM chip rose to $4.90 in August from $4 in January. It’s hovering around $5 in September. The price reversal is partly linked to the much-publicized deal between Samsung and Apple last year that led to the creation of iPod nano

    http://www.businessweek.com/globalbiz/content/sep2006/gb20060925_001749.htm

    Your guesswork fails on these three counts. An unexpectedly strong demand for DRAM chips, coupled with deals with the world’s largest retailers of consumer electronics, have contributed to Samsung’s success in the DRAM market, not price fixing. The final nail in your coffin is the fine that the justice department levied against Samsung. Samsung had to pay 300,000,000 dollars. If price fixing were responsible for most of Samsung’s profits, Samsung would have to pay more money.

    Badmoon:

    The PlayStation 2 came in at around 235,000, with the Xbox 360 slightly disappointingly selling just under 220,000 units, the Game Boy Advance just under 170,000, and the PSP a marginally lackluster 130,000, almost a third the tally of the DS.

    Another soft point in your argument. What? You didn’t think I’d notice that all of your figures were about the PS2? You didn’t think I’d notice that you made no mention of the Nintendo Wii in your figures? I guess you saw the numbers for the PS3 and were none too pleased. What the heck are you doing talking about the PS2 when the next-gen videogame systems have already been released.

    PS3 November sales: 197,000
    Nintendo Wii November Sales 476,000
    Xbox 360: 511,000.

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16115967/

    Badmoon, a company gets nowhere by trumpeting its past achievements. It only gets ahead when the future looks bright. Sony’s position in the videogame depends on the position of its new PS3, not the 6 year old PS2. Unfortunately, for Sony, the PS3 is in deadlast.

    It is no leap of logic to realize that Samsung is basically making most of its profits from price fixing in the semiconductor business. However, the semiconductor business might not be so lucrative for the Koreans in the future.

    This argument is outside of the scope too. My argument is that Samsung is the better company today. The argument about who will be the better company hasn’t started yet. Note: As evidenced by the rise of Samsung stock, investors, who unlike you put their money where the mouths are, are confident of Samsung’s future.

    And the rest of your arguments fall flat for obvious reasons:

    Sony doesn’t seem to be doing too badly at the box office either.

    Yeah, but its still less profitable than Samsung.

    Unfortunately Korea doesn’t seem to be doing too well these days.

    1. This arugment is not about Korea. This argument is about Samsung
    vs Sony.

    2. You’re wrong, but even if what you said were true, it still doesn’t change the fact that Samsung is doing better in every measure that counts. brand growth, profits and market value.

    3. The figures below prove that what you said is untrue:

    Korea’s econ growth this year is 4.8 percent.
    Japan’s econ growth rate revised downward to
    1.8 percent

    3. Average income in Korea surpassed the $20,000 for the first time in
    its history.

    Badmoon,

    To quote Mark Twain, “The rumors of [Sony’s] death have been greatly exaggerated.”

    No one said Sony is dead, but it is definitely in critical condition.

    Why is Samsung superior? Three reasons.

    1. Higher Brand Value.
    2. Higher Profits.
    3. Higher Market Cap.

    Why is Sony superior?

    ?

  32. comment number 32 by: GarlicBreath

    YoungRocco Said:

    GarlicBreath,

    I am putting you on notice: I will ignore each and every single post you write until you decide to stop trolling. There is no reason for namecalling.

    LOL What ‘namecalling’?

  33. comment number 33 by: Fantasy

    Claire said:

    Do you really think this blog consists of people other than japanese or koreans? hahaha.

    Yeah, indeed, there are other nationalities represented here. E.g. I myself am neither Japanese nor Korean, but German. Who cares ?

  34. comment number 34 by: Matt

    YoungRocco (AkihitoMojito) , why are you still posting here?

    Darin, want to do the honors?

  35. comment number 35 by: tomato

    Garlicbreath,

    How did you find out?

  36. comment number 36 by: GarlicBreath

    False: Wrogn again YoungRocco (AkihitoMojito)

    3. The figures below prove that what you said is untrue:

    Korea’s econ growth this year is 4.8 percent.
    Japan’s econ growth rate revised downward to
    1.8 percent

    Korea is unlikely to catch up with Japan economically
    http://times.hankooki.com/lpage/biz/200612/kt2006121718495211910.htm

  37. comment number 37 by: kojibomb

    true….

    they don’t have enough people;

    their best prob is not enough to catch up Japan

  38. comment number 38 by: sqz

    It is not related to a topic of here, but I introduce it.

    (warning)
    This animation include expression that it might give you unpleasantness.
    Please be careful if you will watch it.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_c28X–hPw

    It is same animation. Please click “Barbeque”.
    http://www.hyundai.co.nz/video_tucson.html

  39. comment number 39 by: tomato

    sqz:

    Unbelievably disgusting.
    Do the Koreans think it’s funny or palatable?
    They’re doing a really good job on their PR, aren’t they…

  40. comment number 40 by: GarlicBreath

    Samsung Pleads guilty: Korean exec gets 10 months in jail.

    http://business.bostonherald.com/technologyNews/view.bg?articleid=173490

    So far the majority of the people going to prison are Korean and the majority of the fines have been paid by Korean companies.

    This is why youngrocco said this:

    In fact, price fixing is more common that patent infringement

    I hope to Koreans this type of thing is not normal. But it is a crime and the Koreans and others involved need to spend some hard time in jail not just 10 months. 10 years would seem fair.

    By the way, I want to note that not all Koreans approve of this but Samsung does and is clearly a criminal company. Boycott Samdung.

  41. comment number 41 by: kojibomb

    omg… garlicbreath

    you better stop accusing every one who disagree with you a Korean liar… including me and AkihitoMojito

    I smell kimuchi?

    wow beginning to get pissed off here

    you are so happy when we agree with you talking negative sides of Korea but when we disagree like on here about Samsung… you just change completely…

    I see a nasty bigot right here~~

    not really fun isn’t it?

  42. comment number 42 by: Jenny

    ^
    This is because GarlicBreath is a biased racist that also happens to be unbelievably stubborn and by far holds stronger self importance and pride than most of the Koreans that he is criticising here.

    Gerry makes healthy criticisms, but GarlicBreath obviously doesn’t and stirs up a lot of trouble. He obviously enjoys it. He literally hates anything Korean and glorifies anything Japanese and wonders why some Korean people on this site is outraged by the constant bitchy comparison he makes to make Koreans feel inferior. He encourages it and taunts them on purpose. It’s like kicking someone in the balls as a joke and questioning why he is hurt by it. That’s his logic to everything, its ridiculous. It’s best to ignore him, as he obviously lacks any moral and ethical values.
    Obviously truth hurts to some Koreans, but his way of approaching them is not gonna get him any brownie points at all. Then again, if anybody was as picky and cruel hearted as he is, I could pin point out 1000s of things wrong about him and the things he favours. That’s if one BOTHERED to be that pessimistic with life and spend most of their time looking up negative issues about korea like he does. Someone surely has some self esteem problem to go to that extent of resorting to bringing another nation down to make himself feel better. He gets stirred up with any chance that allows him to bring down korea, and yet he condemns if a korean person gets stirred up like he does. Such an irony 🙂 I blame his sheer ego. Should you not taunt them from the first place, they wouldn’t have any problems with you.
    Lets pretend you are obese and fat and barely have any hair on your scalp.
    I as an ethical being despite knowing this as a fact would make the moral decision to not pin point this out to you and stamp these evidential facts in your bones until you commit suicide.

    I’d really like to know GarlicBreath’s intention of his constant bitching, yes he is literally bitching about everything Korean.
    Does this help you sleep better at night? what is it? Were you mistreated at Samsung that you hold such grudge? Did a Kimbap almost make you choke and die of suffocation? There has to be a cause for all this unhealthy hate. I don’t consider GarlicBreath’s comments to be wise criticisms like Gerry’s. He seriously needs professional help as much as some Korean people here do because of his provoking.

    Perhaps with that spiteful mind of yours, why can’t you then at least relate to some koreans and their vengefulness regarding their colonization etc? Seems very hypocrtical don’t you agree? 🙂