Occidentalism
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Kim Wansop speaks

March 24th, 2007 . by Matt

Here is Kim Wansop speaking about the Japanese administrative period of Korea. Kim Wansop has come into a lot of trouble for expressing his opinion in Korea, including having his book identified as one that damages the morals of youth, lawsuits, harassment and threats of violence on his person.


83 Responses to “Kim Wansop speaks”

  1. comment number 1 by: stannn

    hey pacifist,

    Your view would be cherished in a parallel universe where japan had defeated US in WWII.
    Maybe in that world, japan would be the defender of Asia from western imperialism, the one,neo, who brought prosperity to the Greater East Asia after the war.
    With the help from Japan,
    China, Korea Taiwan, Burma, Malaysia, Philliphines and other countries would have finally escaped their impoverished plight and enjoyed peaceful developments and would thank japan as their savior and their history books would be filled with the stories like how japan had saved asian countries and helped them to develop their economies after the war.

    Maybe Japan would have “liberated” US, california became a proctorate of Japan, and US’s econonomy would be second largest in the world next to Japan. America would have peace constitution and Japanese military bases would be in US. Americans would enjoy calling them pacifists also some of them start champion the american imperialism in the past, bashing Philliphines that they distort true history by saying America did only bad things in the past, that they do not thank America for saving Philliphines from Spain. sounds plausible, huh?
    Who knows? the world might be safer than now with also the nazi germany defeating allied forces,no israel in mideast, no islamic terrorist attacks, no 9/11?

    You can enjoy daydreaming the imperial japan.
    But once in a while, you should realize the “fact” that you are living in such a world where japanese imperialism are considered as “the failure of evil” and not tolerated. Otherwise, you could tell other people about your ideas of “true history”, then rejected as a delusional psychopath.

    Here’s some advice for you.

    If you want to be accepted as “pacifist”,
    then explain yourself to the people here the difference between yours, “pacifist”‘s idea of true history and the “japanese imperialist”‘s.

  2. comment number 2 by: egg

    Sorry again for interupting. I am a newcomer here and I think my knowlege lacks much, compared too both stannn and pacifist. So, I don`t really have rights to make comments against both of you. But please let me say something.

    I think the definition of the word differs much between the both of you, as stannn pointed out before. It seems to me, stannn is using it to descrive the situation of sovereign rights taken away by foreign country whether leagal or not( He/She might say it was not leagal though.). Pacifist is using it as a term to descrive the situation of not only sovereign rights taken away by foreign country leagaly but also military forces wiping out the resistance and no other foreign country agreeing to it and so on. I mean illeagal acts against the international law. (Sorry if I am wrong.)
    In my feelings, sensitive words like invasion should be used under rigid definitions of the international laws. But on the other hand, I think I should try to understand the feelings of Korean people. I think I will have ressentiments if my country could not keep independece for a long period even if there were some social progress at that time.

    stannn, from here I think it will be almost impossible to agree with me but I would appreciate you much if you try to understand it.
    At first I want to state some of my standpoint. I think Japan did awful things in the past. Japan invaded (or liberated) many countries with so much cost (people`s(I am not meaning Japanese only) lives, assets). I never want it happen again. I agree that Japan should face the facts of the past.
    But on the other hand the facts we are going to face should be truths. There should be no exaggerating.
    Many Japanese people are feeling now “Our Grandpa may killed four or five person. There are evidences to show that, and we admit it, it was wrong, will never do it again, but now they are saying he killed forties and fifties without proofs. We can`t tolerate that dishonour.” I feel what pacifist is saying would be quite unaccepable for you but I think he is sharing the same kind of irritation as above. (Sorry pacifist if I am missing your intention.)
    I want to know the facts accurately and if there are still deeds of the imperil armies that is not known, I would like to know, appologize to the victims and conpensate. But I would like to see them with proof. Some people are rather getting tired of suspitions without them.

    It is rather a sensitive issue and may have made you unpleasant but truely these are my feelings. I would like to know your oppinions. Thank you. And sorry again for interupting. Especially pacifist, I think there are many points where I misunderstood you, I will say sorry for that and please correct me.

  3. comment number 3 by: pacifist

    egg, thank you for your words.
    .
    stannn, we don’t talk about imagination.
    We were talking about the truth behind the history.
    .
    You saw Japan’s annexation was invasion. But think it over again.
    .
    To follow is from a free dictionary:
    in·va·sion(n-vzhn)
    n.
    1. The act of invading, especially the entrance of an armed force into a territory to conquer.
    2. A large-scale onset of something injurious or harmful, such as a disease.
    3. An intrusion or encroachment.
    – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –
    .
    As to the 1, there is no armed forces invaded Korea in 1910. Did massacre occur? No. It was done peacefully, after big powers approved it.
    .
    As to the 2, there was no injurious or harmful things occured in 1910.
    .
    As to the 3, it was not an intrusion because the annexation was internationally approved deed. It was right under the internationa law.
    – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –
    stannn,
    Please don’t misunderstand me. I won’t praise the annexation, I am the one who thinks Japan should have avoided to annex Korea. But Korean people should know about the true history.
    .
    Japan has NEVER ever invaded Korea, although she invaded China and other surounding countries in the 1930’s to 1940’s.
    .
    stannn, look at the photo here:
    http://nandakorea.sakura.ne.jp/img/nihonjidai.jpg
    It is a photo taken after the annexation to cerebrate the annexation in Seoul.
    Do you still think this was an invasion?

  4. comment number 4 by: pacifist

    stannn,
    .
    Do you think Hawaii was invaded by USA?
    .
    It was annexed in 1898, only twelve years before the annexation of Korea.
    There is a confused story about the annexation.
    http://www.hawaii-nation.org/betrayal.html
    .
    It was worse than Japan’s annexation of Korea. But didn’t Korean people use to sing “Hawaii belongs to USA” along with “Tsushima belongs to Japan” and “Dokdo belongs to Korea”?
    .
    If you think Japan invaded Korea, then you should think USA invaded Hawaii.
    But I haven’t heard such theory from anybody. What do you think?

  5. comment number 5 by: egg

    My words at52

    I think the definition of the word differs much between the both of you, as stannn pointed out before.

    should have been

    I think the definition of the word invasion differs much between the both of you, as stannn pointed out before.

    Sorry.

    Pacifist, I might have been a fifth wheel but I enjoyed the debate between the both of you and wanted to read more. Sorry for misinterpretations.

  6. comment number 6 by: goda

    stannn

    I’m forced to spare 90% of my energy to translation. so I want to squeeze point.

    You pointed out his machoism,provcation and criticism about right for woman.
    But these are irrelevant to prohibit his departure legally.

    >But it seems obvious to me that avoiding court hearings can be a crucial factor for the immigration offcier to deny Kim’s request of leaving the country.

    I have talked My opinion already in No.50.
    Korean authorities wanted/want to restrain him. Legal measures by Korean authorities is plausible correspondence.
    Because if autorities TRUELY want to resolve the problem that he avoided cort hearing, The problem is already sure to be resolved. This is my opinion.

    Again I ask you. Why do you think it’s ‘be seems obvious’.

  7. comment number 7 by: pacifist

    stannn,
    .
    I haven’t received a reply from you, which may mean you are approving what I wrote?
    .
    Through this topic about Kim Wansop, I hope Korean people to know that the education in Korea has a big problem especially for the young persons.
    .
    Korea has been educated their people as what Japan did were all wrong while Korea was a great independent country, but I’m sorry to say that these are illusions , distorted by Korean government.
    .
    I hope there will be more Kim Wansops who notice the problem in Korea.
    This is a key element for the development of Korea in the future.

  8. comment number 8 by: goda

    pacifist and egg

    I agree on you.Thanks for your helpness.

    Korea tend to stick on A point of view and She disregards that it’s only A point of view. Moreover,She distort and swells it.
    So she already can’t find and return to the fact.

    The political turmoil of the peninsula continues. so it might be difficult for them to get over the nationalism also Anti-Japan.

  9. comment number 9 by: stannn

    hey looks like some people wait for me to come back,
    🙂

    pacifist,

    In 1905, when the Eulsa treaty was signed(?),
    Korean Imperial palace was occupied by japanese troops. Even though five government officials signed the agreement under threatening atmostphere, Korean emperor, the only one who had the authoritity to legalize any international agreement,refused to sign it.
    Moreover, in 1907,Korean emperor sent secret emissaries to the Jague peace convention to protest the illegality of the Eulsa treaty.
    After this incident, the emperor got dethroned and the Korean army was disbanded by japanese, part of them joined korean resistances who fought against japanese police and army. Wiki says that between October 1907 and April 1908, there were over 1,908 attacks . This leads to increasement of japanese occupation force in korea. However, these resistances are not a good match of the japanese army who had modernized weapons and well-trained. So these guys got defeated and later retreated to the Manchuria and continued to attack japanese army and police by surprise. This was the circumstance around 1910. So if you say that korean people didn’t resist and it was done peacefully, then you are distorting the truth.
    And in 1910,when Japan could decide Korea’s foreign relations by Eulsa Treaty(which is illegal as you can see above)
    the annexation was made. However, Korean emperor, the son of the dethroned, also refused to sign the annexation treaty.

    Also, it is true that US support the annexation. However, it is because US wanted Phillipines, you may know Taft-Katsura agreement. US was also an imperialist at that time. And for the hawaii, you are right.
    US invaded hawaii and annexated it. Moreover,
    US robbed Mexico of california and Spain of Philippines. And it is not well known because US imperialism had succeeded which later evolved into the current foxa americana.

    Well I think I gotta go. I should continue tomorrow. Sorry.

  10. comment number 10 by: pacifist

    stannn,

    Welcome back!
    .
    Please read the following text, this is the true history of Korea. (by Prof. Katsuoka, Meisei Univ.)
    It’s a pity that you can’t learn such a true history in your country….
    – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –

    Japan supported the 開花派 (Independent party) at first and hoped Chosun would voluntarily do an independent movement but it failed because Qing strengthened the suzerain-dependency relationship. So Japan intended to cut off the suzerain-dependency relationship of Chosun with Qing, which had been the biggest obstacle for the independence of Chosun. Qing would obstruct Japan’s movement, of course. The struggle between Qing and Japan was inevitable. Thus occurred the Sino-Japanese war. So the Sino-Japanese war was, to Japan, it was entirely the war to support the independence of Chosun.
    The first article of the Shimonoseki Treaty was the proof of it, it clearly says “China (Qing) recognises definitively the full and complete independence and autonomy of Korea (Chosun), and, in consequence, the payment of tribute and the performance of ceremonies and formalities by Korea to China, in derogation of such independence and autonomy, shall wholly cease for the future”.
    By the treaty, they had a light of independence for the first time, until then people of Chosun had been resigned to the tributary position to the successive Chinese dynasties for almost a thousand years. If it were not for the Sino-Japanese war, there was no possibility of their independence from Qing at all. I won’t expect them to be terribly grateful, but they have not fully explained this historic fact in textbooks.
    However, Chosun lost the golden opportunity before their eyes. Chosun underestimated Japan, after the triple intervention, sought for Russian protection and became a kind of a tributary to Russia. It was around the time when the king Kojong ran into the Russian embassy (1896). At this stage, Chosun was on the verge of collapse.
      “No nations can’t stand only relying on other countries without the element of independency”, “Korea has no choice other than self-destruction if they continue to be as today” – these were warnings uttered by Hirobumi Itoh, who was assigned as the first Resident-General, to Korean government ministers, (朝鮮総督府編『朝鮮の保護及び併合』)。
    Itoh did his best to make Korea independent in the future with the will of the Emperor of Meiji, but was shot dead by An Jung-geun. Who made Korea collapse was no other than Korea herself.
     

    .
    I will write more about the true history later. See you!

  11. comment number 11 by: stannn

    egg,

    It seems to me that japanese people failed
    to detach themselves from the imperialist japan.
    This is in contrast to Germany. To me, Germans have successfully separated nazi germany from themselves. Germans are the ones who strongly criticize nazi germany.
    However, Japan seems to criticize the war itself, saying all wars are wrong, japanese are also victims and not criticizing imperialist japan enough, moreover they look like thinking imperialist japan are not that evil,they just did what they are supposed to do and japanese’s the only fault is losing the war.
    Germany’s postwar identity was built by those persecuted by the nazis and it has been run by mostly those people, not former nazis. By contrast, there was no major change
    in japanese politics so those who served in imperialistic japan, later became PMs or other government officials and these ruling class’s descendents are still running japan with little dissent and educating japanese public some vague ideas of democracy,pacifism
    and horror of wars, not criticizing enough those imeperialsts who were responsible for the horror, rather taking ambiguous stances on them, so making japanese people identifying past imperialists as themselves, robbing japanese of the chance to develop proper postwar identity.

    So in this sense, japan’s education system seemed to fail to bring up the citizens who are apt to live in the postwar world,who can bravely and calmly criticize the imperialist japan, rather it is producing those who are either just apathetic to the past or keeping secret grudges in the defeat of imperialists.

    So, egg,

    Many Japanese people are feeling now “Our Grandpa may killed four or five person. There are evidences to show that, and we admit it, it was wrong, will never do it again, but now they are saying he killed forties and fifties without proofs. We can`t tolerate that dishonour.” I feel what pacifist is saying would be quite unaccepable for you but I think he is sharing the same kind of irritation as above. (Sorry pacifist if I am missing your intention.)
    I want to know the facts accurately and if there are still deeds of the imperil armies that is not known, I would like to know, appologize to the victims and conpensate. But I would like to see them with proof. Some people are rather getting tired of suspitions without them.

    I think japanese should first detach imperialistic japan from themselves so that they can have proper perspective of the past.
    After convincing other people that you finally did it, then, start digging out the truth and telling people “hey, Nanking massacre is exaggerated but it is still massacre done by imperial japan. there aren’t 300,000 victims. there are only 50,000 victims. It is now verified, we will make Dec 13 as the official holiday for Nanking massacre not to forget what imperial japanese did. And we will set up a memorial center next to yasukuni shrine to commemorate those chinese victims, our PM will visit every year.”

    If it hurts your feelings,
    then I am sorry for that.

  12. comment number 12 by: stannn

    hep pacifist,

    Why don’t you continue your theory of “peaceful” annexation?, huh?

    this is what I found from the web.
    http://www.je-kaleidoscope.jp/english/text1.html

    It’s from one of the japanese middle school history textbook. It said that it is used in 2006.

    The annexation of Korea

    After the Russo-Japanese War, Japan took over Korean foreign policy,
    established the Office of the Resident General in Korea, took control of
    domestic policy as well, and disbanded the Korean army. Ex-army soldiers
    joined forces with peasants to resist the japanese(the Righteous Army
    movement), and the first resident-general of Korea, Ito Hirobumi, was
    assassinated by a member of the nationalist movement named An Chung-gum.
    In response to this action, Japan used the threat of military force to make
    Korea a colony in 1910. This is referred to as the annexation of Korea.

    In the wake of the annexation, japan established the Government-General of Korea,
    appointed a military governor-general, stationed Japanese troops and police
    throughout the country, and suppressed the resistance movement. All political activity
    was banned, publication of newspapers was restricted, and the Japanese language and
    Japanese history were made compulsory subjects in schools. Japan thus repudicated the
    history and culture of the Korean people and pursued a policy of forcibly assimilating
    the Koreans into the Japanese nation. Like the Taiwanese,however, the people
    of Korea were denied the right to vote. For their part, Koreans continued their
    resistance to Japanese rule.

    I think korean history book’s description of
    annexation is almost the same.
    Is it different from what you learned in school? or were you not a good student in history class?

    Where did you learn the “true history”?
    before 1945 or in a parallel universe?

  13. comment number 13 by: pacifist

    stannn,
    .
    There are various texbooks in Japan, because of different systems of textbooks – all the texbooks are made by non-government publishers while in Korea the government is making them – so it is a direct message from the government. But Japanese textbook is not the one, it varies in contents.
    .
    Anyway, the one you mentioned seems not to be fully explaining the truth behind the history.
    .
    BTW, Matt has shown somewhere in Occidentalism about the conference concerning the annexation of Korea. I couldn’t find it but it was a superb one.
    .
    The conference took place on 16th and 17th November 2001 at Cambridge Massachussettes USA with a help from the Harvard Univ.
    It was held under the heavy influence of Korean government with economical support from Korean companies.
    But the result of the conference was against the Korean government’ hope – their insistency was not accepted by western scholars of international law. The western scholars admitted that the annexation was legitimate. Prof. J. Crawford (UK, Cambridge) said, “It was not a unusual thing to annex the country that couldn’t live independently in the view of the world order”.
    .
    On 16th August 1910, Korean prime minister Li 李完用 visited Japanese Resident-General Terauchi and they talkd about the annexation. The PM Li only said objection about the name of the country and the name of Korean emperor after the annexation but no other objections were made.
    PM Li brought back the project of the annexation to the Korean cabinet. There was only one minister – 李容植学部大臣 who was against the project. So PM Li negotiated with the Korean emperor Kojong and in result the project was agreed. PM Li told Terauchi about the cabinet’s agreement on the 20th. Terauchi asked Tokyo to sign the project and was concluded on the 22nd.
    The important thing is that the emperor Kojong was not against the project, he even helped it, although this was not educated in Korea.
    .
    To follow is from one of my old postings.
    .
    Here is a copy of an Imperial mandate by Korean emperor 純宗皇帝 when Korea was to be annexed;

    – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –
    皇帝、若(ここ)に曰く、
    Emperor says here,

    朕否徳にして艱大なる業を承け、
    I suceeded a profession of non-virtue and hardship,

    臨御以後今日に至るまで、維新政令に関し承図し備試し、
    Until today, I ordered and tried new government ordinances,

    未だ曽て至らずと雖も、由来積弱痼を成し、疲弊極処に至り、時日間に挽回の施措望み無し。
    it was not yet completed but weakness of this country increased and it is exhausted, and there is no hope to regain power.

    中夜憂慮善後の策茫然たり。
    Day and night I worried but there is no policy available and I stood absent-mindedly.

    此に任し支離益甚だしければ、終局に収拾し能わざるに底(いた)らん。
    If we lose lots of benefits, we can’t settle them at the end.

    寧ろ大任を人に託し完全なる方法と革新なる功効を奏せいむるに如かず。
    Rather we’d better entrust it to others in order to get complete way and innovative result.

    故に朕是に於いて瞿然として内に省み廊然として、自ら断じ、
    Therefore, I thought calmly by myself and decided myself,

    茲に韓国の統治権を従前より親信依り仰したる、隣国日本皇帝陛下に譲与し、
    外東洋の平和を強固ならしめ、内八域の民生を保全ならしめんとす。
    I am going to give the sovereignty of Korea to the neighbouring country Japan’s His majesty the Emperor, whom I have been looking up from bottom of my heart, in order to strengthen peace over the far east and to protect public welfare around the area.

    惟爾大小臣民は、国勢と時宜を深察し、
    煩擾するなく各其業に安じ、日本帝国の文明の新政に服従し、幸福を共受せよ。
    So all the people of Korea should think about the situation about this country, do one’s job without anxiety, obey the new cultural policy of Imperial Japan and enjoy happiness.

    朕が今日の此の挙は、
    爾有衆を忘れたるにあらず、
    My decision today doesn’t mean that I forgot the people of Korea,

    専ら爾有衆を救い活かせんとする至意に出づ。
    it is due to the intention to relieve and let live the people of Korea.

    爾臣民は朕の此の意を克く体せよ。
    So all the people should remember my will.

    隆煕四年八月二十九日

    御璽

  14. comment number 14 by: stannn

    Hey pacifist,
    Why don’t you continue arguing that the annexation was done “peacefully”?
    So does it mean you concede that the annexation was not done peacefully?
    Anyway, for your comment above,

    The important thing is that the emperor Kojong was not against the project, he even helped it, although this was not educated in Korea.

    At the time of annexation, the emperor was Sunjong not Kojong. simple mistake?
    And Kojong is the one who sent the secret emissaries to Hague to protest the illigality of the Eulsa Treaty and got dethroned by Japanese.

    To follow is from one of my old postings.
    .
    Here is a copy of an Imperial mandate by Korean emperor 純宗皇帝 when Korea was to be annexed;

    This statement was issued “by the name of emperor”. And it is used by Japan that the emperor did support the annexation.
    However, the emperor didn’t sign the Treaty.
    Morover, later before he died, his willing statement was released thru Korean American newspaper,新韓民報, based in SF. In it, he
    said that the annexation was made by Japanese and korean traitors against his will. Moreover, he urged korean people to do efforts to liberate themselves from Japanese oppression.

    This is from the wiki,

    In his last testament in 1926, Emperor Yung-hui affirmed that the treaty was forced through by ministers threatened and bribed by the Japanese. It is believed that the seal was originally hidden by Empress Sunjeong, and that it was physically forced off her by others. The people who signed and agreed to the treaty were Korean ministers who had secretly agreed with the Japanese government prior to the actual signing of the treaty.

    And this is a korean article about What the emperpor said,

    “합방조약 무효” 순종 유언 발견

    대한제국 마지막 임금인 순종황제가 1926년 임종하기 직전 『日韓倂合條約(韓日합방조약)은 무효』라고 선언한 유서를 남긴 사실이 당시 교민신문에 보도된 것으로 확인됐다.
    서울대 李泰鎭교수(국사학)는 13일 『대한제국 순종황제가 1926년 4월26일 붕어하기 직전 병합조약은 자신이 한 것이 아니므로 파기돼야 한다고 밝힌 遺詔(유조:왕이 백성들에게 유언으로 남기는 조칙)가 「新韓民報」 같은 해 7월8일자에 보도된 사실이 처음으로 확인됐다』고 밝혔다.

    신한민보는 1907년 島山 安昌浩 등이 미국 샌프란시스코에서 발행한 교민신문으로 李교수는 남가주대(USC)에서 이 신문의 마이크로필름을 확보했다.

    李교수는 순종은 궁내부대신 趙鼎九에게 조칙을 받아 적도록 했으며 지금까지순종이 이같은 발언을 했다는 주장이 일부 제기되기는 했으나 유조 형식으로 신문에보도됐다는 사실은 처음 확인된 것이라고 주장했다.

    이는 「순종 황제의 勅諭文(칙유문) 등 병합조약과 관련된 문서에는 國璽가 찍혀있지 않고 모든 법령에 들어가는 황제의 친필 서명이 없는 대신 행정적 결재에만 사용한 御璽가 찍혀 있어 국제법적으로 무효」라는 李교수의 기존 주장을 뒷받침하는것이어서 주목된다.

    순종은 遺詔에서 『지난날의 병합 인준은 强隣(일본을 가리킴)이 逆臣의 무리(李完用 등을 가리킴)와 더불어 제멋대로 해서 제멋대로 선포한 것으로 나를 유폐하고협박하여 한 것』이라고 밝혔다.

    순종은 이어 『卿(趙鼎九 지칭)에게 위탁하노니 이 조칙을 대외에 선포하여 가장사랑하고 존경하는 백성들에게 병합이 내가 한 것이 아니라는 것을 분명히 알게 하면 이전의 소위 병합 인준과 양국의 조칙은 스스로 파기에 돌아가고 말 것』이라고강조했다.

    순종은 마지막으로 『여러분들이여 노력하여 광복하라. 짐의 혼백이 어둠 속에서여러분을 도우리라』라고 덧붙였다.

    한편 李교수는 부산대 한국민족문화연구소가 14일 주최하는 「동아시아에서의 한일관계」 국제학술대회에서 이같은 내용을 학계에 공식 발표한다.

    李교수는 『일본 정치지도자들이 병합은 합법적이었다는 「망언」을 여전히 되풀이하고 있는 상황에서 순종황제의 공포조칙이 자신이 한 것이 아니라고 밝히는 진술이유조로 확인된 이상 일본 정부는 한국민과 한국정부에 대해 진정한 사과를 해야 할것』이라고 말했다.

  15. comment number 15 by: stannn

    pacifist,
    So which textbook do you think fully describe the “true history.”? How many history textbooks
    adopt your view of “true history”? Did you learn from them? How many people in Japan do think like you?, maybe other japanese can answer these question.

    You are the proving example telling other people here that some japanese people can’t get along with its neighbors. So if you want to
    keep tainting japan’s reputation, keep revealing your view of “true history”.
    otherwise,here’s my suggestions to restore japan’s reputation, no more bashings from china
    or korea guaranteed;

    1.First try thinking over what japanese could do to purge any imperial japan’s remnants which their ancestors failed to do.

    2.Think over How the japanese society can be removed of imperial japan, like prohibiting those imperial japan’s collaborators from getting important positions(maybe too late?), making those attempts to glorify imperialists be punished by the law, telling the neighbors that japan shares the same sentiments against imperial japan with the neighbors.

    Thereafter, start arguing the “true history”, then you can calmly view the true landscape of history, not falling in some pitfall.

    Isn’t this kind of critical thinking taught in highschool or middleschool?

  16. comment number 16 by: pacifist

    stannn,
    .
    Please don’t misunderstand me. I’m not a right wing person, I’m a ordinary Japanese who don’t like military Japan.
    But Japan was punished after the WWII and all the aspects of military Japan were gone.
    Japan apologised many times for asian countries including China and Korea and have paid lots of money as reparations.
    .
    But I am saying this because Korean textbooks distort the history by saying that all the Japan did were wrong.
    .
    But in my opinion, the Sino-Japanese war and the Russo-Japanese war were inevitable wars to protect Japan and Korea too.
    And to make Korea a protectorate and to annex Korea were not for invasion. It was for Korea. Korea was weak and was on the verge of collapse without aides.
    Keep in mind that the annexation was legal as worldwide scholars of internationl law admitted.
    .
    Remember that if Korea was a strong and independent country, Japan didn’t need to pay lots of cost for these wars.
    Korea have to educate their people that the tragedy in Korea attributed to Korea herself.
    .
    Japan has been punished since 1945, I think it’s natural because many valuable lives were lost because of the imperial Japan, but how about Korea?
    She was not in the allied powers, she enjoyed prosperity with Japan and fought against the allied powers with Japan.
    Don’t they need a soul-searching or reflection? Were they poor victims and no responsibility?

  17. comment number 17 by: pacifist

    stannn,
    .
    I want you to read the following text.
    It was written by ex-prof. Seoul Central Univ. 崔基鎬. (Sorry for the poor translation)
    .

    I, who was born in 1923 during the midst of the annexation days, know well that not all the Korean people were/are anti-Japan. Nobody would not blame me if I say that Koreans have rather a favouarble emotiion toward Japan. The Ro’s government and media are only agitating to make people’s opinions and people’s emotion anti-Japan.
    .
    Actually, in the era of the annexation there were no opositions between Koreans and Japanese in my hometown and they were living happily together. When the war ended they experienced sorrow of parting, grasping hands together and shedding tears.
    .
    Today’s history textbooks in Korea say ‘Nittei (Imeperial Japan) forced to change the names to Japanese style promoting the words “Inland and Korea as one unity” or “Japan and Korea has the same ancestors” or “people of the same Empire” etc..’, but these are not true. So-called 創氏改名 was not forced to Koreans, it was a voluntary one or done by an encouragement.
    .
    You may understand it if you see the example of the General 金錫源, who graduated from Japan’s Military Academy and became an officer and later received a decoration 金鵄勲章 for the first time as a Korean for distinguished service in the war against China, had not changed his name to Japanese name. If it was forced, they wouldn’t give a decoration to the Korean who refused it. Incidentally, 20 % of our generation of Tisho didn’t change their names. They didn’t feel discriminastion when they assumed important posts in the government offices or banks. In spite of this, many Koreans changed their names, it was because they had favour toward Japan and Japanese culture.
    .
    And the same tendency is still living. So, if the government in today’s Korea adopt a pro-Japanese policy, Japanese culture including literature, music and life style, will infiltrate into Korean people.
    However, the ruler thinks it will endanger Korea’s independence and will make a crack on the Korean nationality. It means that the government has to adopt anti-Japan policy because people are pro-Japanese, not because people have anti-Japan emotions.
    It is the anti-Japan for the maintenance of their political power, as Japanese Embassy in Korea analyzed before.
    .
    To our surprise, over a half of the population were yangbans in the end of the 19th century in Chosun. Over a half of poulation despise the labour and the rest were plundered by the former, this kind of society can’t make a proper country.
    .
    Naturally economy became impoverished but the governing classes didn’t pay attention to it, struggled for power and wasted their money. Half of the national budget was consumed in the official residences. They didn’t pay for infrastructure for industries.
    During the 500 years of the Yi Dynasty there were no safe roads for human beings at all. No bridges on almost all the rivers. There were no harbor facilities because they adopted the national isolation policy.
    .
    President Ro says that Hideyoshi’s invasion
    壬辰倭乱 destroyed the basis of industries and that it delayed the modernaization of Korea, but the Yi Dynasty didn’t prepare for the modernization right from the beginning at all.
    .
    There is a difference from Japan’s Tokugawa shogunate at this point although Japan also meintained the national isolation policy as well. Japan made the infrastructure during the 300-year-long national isolation period, introducing western information through Dejima of Nagasaki.
    So they could make their country modernized in a short period after the Meiji restoration.
    .
    On the contrary, Yi’s Dynasty has blocked the information from abroad and the conservatives liquidated the 開花派 (independent party) who acted because they felt the necessity of modernization.
    I don’t think that such a country could achieved the modernization themselves.
    Korea could start as a modern country because Japan defeated Russia and they began to reform the domestic administaration.
    .
    It is not only President Ro who didn’t see the history and put the lid on the past.
    Korean history texbooks haven’t mentioned the actual condition of the Yi Dynasty where 貪官汚吏 (dirty officers who always want bribes) were thriving and mentioned as if Korea would be a great independent country if the annexation didn’t occur.
    But it is an apparent fact that the annexation brought the education of all the people, modern medical system, and the infrastructure which made it possible to start as an industrial country.
    .
    people at that time didn’t feel a sense of humiliation to be annexed. If they didn’t do the reckless war and if they didn’t lose, both of Japan and Korea would be a good example of asian countries today, developing together in cooperation with each other.

  18. comment number 18 by: pacifist

    Correction:
    .

    Incidentally, 20 % of our generation of Tisho didn’t change their names.

    SHOULD BE

    Incidentally, 20% of our generation of Taisho didn’t change thier names.

    .
    Taisho is the name of Japanese emperor after the emperor of Meiji.

  19. comment number 19 by: pacifist

    stannn,
    .

    After the formal Japanese annexation of Korea in 1910, Kojong was called Yi T’aewang.

    .
    Kojong (1852-1919) may have helped Japan before he was called Yi T’aewang.
    .

    Prof. Shigeki Sakamoto of Kansei Univ. (International law) said, “in 1905 when the second Japanese-Korean treaty (Ulsa treaty) was concluded, only the enforcement to the representative of a country was admitted to be a reason to see a treaty to be invalid”.
    He also pointed out, “A threat by arms of a strong country toward a weak country, or using the armed forces would not a reason to make the treaty invalid”.

     
    .
    So whether the Korean emperor was forced or not is a problem.
    But the Korean scholars admitted that they couldn’t find the direct evidence that Japan forced him.
    .

    According to prof. Tamaki Harada (Hiroshima Women’s Univ.), the emperor Kojong was influenced Korean ministers to sign the Ulsa treaty. At the conference in the presence of the Emperor, all the ministers were against the proposal of the treaty but Kojong rejected the conference and made the treaty concluded.

  20. comment number 20 by: stannn

    hey pacifist,

    Japanese imperialism was continued until the defeat in 1945. And Korea’s annexation is the example of victory of japanese imperialism, like victory of Sino-Japanese War, Russo-Japanese War.

    And your view of annexation is the same as
    imperialist’s view.

    It seems to me you’re just “chanting and missing victorious period of Japanese imperialism”.

    You are saying “military japan”. Maybe it means the invasion of manchuria,china,south east asia and the attack on Pearl harbor.

    So you are dividing japanese imperialism period before and after the invasion of Manchuria and justifying japanese imperialism before the “military era”.

    And It’s like this;since you’re defeated by US and afraid of US, You are not saying anything that would irritate US but since you don’t think you were defeated by Korea or China and are not afraid of korea or china, so just keep provoking china or korea
    by glorifying japan’s imperialistic period.

    Please don’t misunderstand me. I’m not a right wing person, I’m a ordinary Japanese who don’t like military Japan.
    But Japan was punished after the WWII and all the aspects of military Japan were gone.
    Japan apologised many times for asian countries including China and Korea and have paid lots of money as reparations.
    .

    How was japan punished?by Tokyo war tribunal?
    Isn’t that enough? If Macarthur failed to do that, then it’s Japanese people’s responsibility to purge its society of any imperial japan’s collaborators.

    Isn’t it true that people served in imperialistic japan, later became PMs or other government officials of postwar japan? and their descendents are still having the hegemony in japanese society?
    Aren’t these people the ones who seek to revise the constitution, downplay wartime atrocities, the very example, PM Shinzo Abe?
    I am sorry to say this but I am so sure that Japanese should be shameful of this failure of purge until now.

    Until the political powers are shifted to the opponents of these revisionists

    and the complete purge of imperialism in japanese society is done or at least expected by setting up the so called “anti imperial japan law”

    and educating the japanese public systematically about the true nature of wartime atrocities by imperial japan by setting up wartime museum thruout japan,(not those ones which condemn just wars and say everybody is victim) or it would be a good idea making some films about wartime atrocities(unit 731, Nanking massacre or comfort women) and publicize them in japan.

    until these requirements are fulfilled,
    Japan’s neighbors will suspect the hidden intention of any attempts of history revision.

    Before mocking the Yi dynasty for its failure 100 years ago , why don’t you reflect on the present japan’s failure of removing “imperialism” from its society? Isn’t it more imminent one?

    Please let me hear your opinion of the failure of postwar purge in japanese society.

  21. comment number 21 by: stannn

    pacifist,

    But in my opinion, the Sino-Japanese war and the Russo-Japanese war were inevitable wars to protect Japan and Korea too.
    And to make Korea a protectorate and to annex Korea were not for invasion. It was for Korea. Korea was weak and was on the verge of collapse without aides.

    What you just admitted is what people call imperialism.
    This is your confession that you’re an imperialist. Do you mind if I call you imperialist, or imperialist(a.k.a. pacifist )
    ?

    Japan has been punished since 1945, I think it’s natural because many valuable lives were lost because of the imperial Japan, but how about Korea?
    She was not in the allied powers, she enjoyed prosperity with Japan and fought against the allied powers with Japan.
    Don’t they need a soul-searching or reflection? Were they poor victims and no responsibility?

    This ones are punch-lines which reveal your true identity. So you are accusing koreans of not being punished together with japan for WWII? Since some koreans were “forced” to participate in war “under the name of Hirohito”, koreans are the ones that should be condemned and they should apologize to allied forces together with Japan?

    I’m not a right wing person, I’m a ordinary Japanese who don’t like military Japan

    hey imperialist (aka pacifist), are you sure that you are just an ordinary japanese?
    I am just curious whether your ideas are shared by majority silent japanese.

  22. comment number 22 by: pacifist

    stannn,
    .
    I understand your point, you are a typical Korean person educated in Korean style. I don’t blame you, because it’s not your fault.
    In Korea, the government has educated people in anti-Japan sentiment, as ex-Prof.崔基鎬 pointed out.
    .
    stannn, your view to see all the Japan did was wrong including the Sino-Japanese and Russo-Japanese wars is not a standard view in the world. It is a typical Korean propaganda to deny their responsibilities.
    .
    Kim Wansop noticed the inconsistency of this propaganda while he was staying abroad.
    I will write later again because I have no time now.

  23. comment number 23 by: stannn

    hey imperialist aka pacifist,

    stannn, your view to see all the Japan did was wrong including the Sino-Japanese and Russo-Japanese wars is not a standard view in the world. It is a typical Korean propaganda to deny their responsibilities.
    .

    What I said is Sino-Japanese and Russo-Japanese wars and annexation of Korea are
    all japanese imperialism’s victory.
    Isn’t this a standard view in the world?

    I haven’t hear your opinion about the failure of postwar purge in japanese society. Any comment on this? Is there other
    japanese to talk about this failure?

  24. comment number 24 by: egg

    stannn, nice to see you back. Thank you for giving me your opinion. I really enjoy talking with you. And sorry for my late replies.

    If it hurts your feelings,
    then I am sorry for that.

    Never mind. On the first place, it does not and secondary even if it does, I would like to hear your thoughts.
    The order of my comment against your arguments will be upside down but first of all I want to express my idea against this.

    And we will set up a memorial center next to yasukuni shrine to commemorate those chinese victims, our PM will visit every year.

    I think Japan should do this. It may not be the point you are trying to make, I am not sure, but I think Japan should express her reglet, apology to the decendants of the victims. I think I am not a left winger, I think I am rather a right (the word conservative may be better). But still, I think when Japanese people looks back about the WW2, we tend to see our casualties more, compared to the casualties caused by us. At least I have the tendency. There are TV programs about our invasion on 8.15 every year but unconciously I tend to change the channel. So, making a memorial center for victims caused by the Japanese empire will put some light on our deeds and will strongly prevent us from forgetting them. ( It will be against your opinion but still I think the researches to determine the numbers of the victims should be done, but sadly I think the Chinese goverment will not cooperate with us, though. So it may be that we cannot refer to the numbers in it.)

    It seems to me that japanese people failed
    to detach themselves from the imperialist japan.
    This is in contrast to Germany. To me, Germans have successfully separated nazi germany from themselves. Germans are the ones who strongly criticize nazi germany.

    I often hear this argument. Please undestand that I am not trying to make excuses, but let me point out one thing. It seems to me, nazi and the German people in general may be compared to oil and water. German people succeeded in separating themselves from nazi. To me it sounds like “It was all nazi`s fault. The peole of Germany in general was the victims too. We hate nazi as much as you.” My knowlege lacks so, it may not be the fact, but from all I know I can not help feeling like that. (Please, no intention of accusing or blaming people of Germany. If it is not appropriate please correct me.)
    On the other hand it was impossible for the Japanese people to separate themselves from the military section or Tojo or whoever is supposed to blame. I feel our ancestors and Tojo to be orange and grapefruit juice. Most of our ancestors supported them, or at least they couldn`t stop them. I think I should take our ancestor`s responsibility. So, as I think that I (not nazi or Tojo but I) should take the responsibility for the deeds of imperial Japan, I cannot be so generous as to take the responsibilities of things that were not done by imperial Japan. That is the reason why I insist on facts and proofs.

    Germany’s postwar identity was built by those persecuted by the nazis and it has been run by mostly those people, not former nazis.

    I am sorry that I cannot provide proofs so, it may not be true but I have heard that there were still judges who cooperated with nazi in courts after the WW2. Does someone have some informations?

    So in this sense, japan’s education system seemed to fail to bring up the citizens who are apt to live in the postwar world,who can bravely and calmly criticize the imperialist japan, rather it is producing those who are either just apathetic to the past or keeping secret grudges in the defeat of imperialists.

    Do I sound like that? (No intention of offence. I would like to know the accurate facts of the past but my comments might seem to you that I am not sincere or maybe you cannot believe me. I just want to know how my comments sound to you.) And at the same time I want to say, you cannot apologize properly if you don`t know what you have done. For example, I can apologize for pearl harbor. And I think I can apologize for killing 50,000 people(may be more) at Nankin incident. But for 300,000 I can not. (I think more researches should be done and if really Japanese army killed 300,000 , I think Japan should state an apology though.) I wonder, is my attitude “apathetic to the past or keeping secret grudges in the defeat of imperialists.”? If it is, I think your expectations for the Japanese people is little too high.

    After convincing other people that you finally did it

    I think more researches can be done and every time a new victims appear Japan should apologize. I hope that the Korean and Chinese and other people will accept that.

    Sorry for being late and long but again I would like to know your opinion. Thank you.

  25. comment number 25 by: egg

    Sorry, I was interupting again. I didn`t read the post from 71. Because oh my, it seems that it took me more than 2hours to write the post above. So much loss of time. But the temptation to hear stannn`s opinion is so strong…

  26. comment number 26 by: stannn

    Hey egg,

    I am not against any research to determine the number of victims of Nanking massacre. I rather support any research if its intention is not to deny the war crimes.

    On the other hand it was impossible for the Japanese people to separate themselves from the military section or Tojo or whoever is supposed to blame. I feel our ancestors and Tojo to be orange and grapefruit juice. Most of our ancestors supported them, or at least they couldn`t stop them. I think I should take our ancestor`s responsibility.

    Well, I can see that it is a difficult mission to separate imperial japan in their underlying sympathy to their ancestors. But for the japan to play a bigger role in the future, it is a necessary step.

    I am not 100% sure but it seems that in US’s new world order, japan is supposed to play an east asia’s Britain’s role against the rising china. To play such a role, japan should first be cleared of any imperialist’s
    relics physically or mentally. Otherwise, it would be a big burden for US to allow japan a bigger role. Japan has been a passive observer in international politics until now so these history problems hadn’t been such big problems. However now the time is coming for japan to stand up or not. It might be possible that these history problems hinder US stick to its original plan, rather make US rewrite its strategy in east asia.

    I wonder, is my attitude “apathetic to the past or keeping secret grudges in the defeat of imperialists.”? If it is, I think your expectations for the Japanese people is little too high

    If you get offened, I am sorry.

    To me,
    you look confused; you don’t like other people exaggerate your ancestors’ wrongdoings,but at least seem to be willing to take due responsiblity for the “well measured” atrocities.

    You seem to fall in neither category.
    So I should correct my comment as
    “japanese education system is producing those who are just apathetic to the past or those keeping secret grudges in the defeat of imperialists or those who are eager to know the truth and willing to accept any due responsibility for their ancestors’s wrongdongs”

    I think more researches can be done and every time a new victims appear Japan should apologize. I hope that the Korean and Chinese and other people will accept that

    I hope I can see a news that a research reveal a new japanese warcrime not because I hate japanese but because then I can see that the research is not for downplaying warcrimes. But I haven’t heard about those yet.

  27. comment number 27 by: egg

    stannn, I think I got your suspicions against Japan.

    I rather support any research if its intention is not to deny the war crimes.

    I must admit it may seem so. Japan should do the researches more positively before she is urged by others.
    We might have been chasing economic growth too much. It may be time to dig the past. (It may be that it is only me who don`t know the researches though.)

    Well, I can see that it is a difficult mission to separate imperial japan in their underlying sympathy to their ancestors. But for the japan to play a bigger role in the future, it is a necessary step.

    My posts might have been hard to take the meanings. What I am saying is that I think our ancestors were the imperial Japan themselves. They were the ones who invaded other countries. I can`t blame no other but our ancestors. In my view it is impposible to separate them. That is why I am taking the responsibility of invasion directly. I am not saying that I will only take the responsibility of our ancestors not being able to prevent invasion but also our ancestors invading other countries.

    If you get offened, I am sorry.

    Not at all. Never mind as I posted above.

    I hope I can see a news that a research reveal a new japanese warcrime not because I hate japanese but because then I can see that the research is not for downplaying warcrimes. But I haven’t heard about those yet.

    I wish I could hear that too. And I will try to learn about history more. I think then your suspicion may be cleared.

  28. comment number 28 by: pacifist

    stannn,
    .

    What I said is Sino-Japanese and Russo-Japanese wars and annexation of Korea are
    all japanese imperialism’s victory.
    Isn’t this a standard view in the world?

    .
    No, your opinion is Korean standard, not a standard in the world.
    You should not include all the things happned during the half a century as a whole in the word “imperialism”.
    .
    Both of the Sino-Japanese and Russo-Japanese wars were not related with the imperialism of the 1940’s. They were victories for Japan (and for also Korea) but not for imperialism. And these were the wars to protect Japan (and also Korea), not invasive ones.
    .
    Korean textbooks of history have not explained the situation of the Yi Dynasty, which was the direct reasons of these wars. They only shift the responsibility onto Japanese imperialism, but it is not right.
    .
    I tell you that Japan had done good things for Korea in the beginning of the Meiji government, which was not related with imperialism.
    As ex-Prof. 崔基鎬 wrote, modern Korea today wouldn’t be present if Japan didn’t support her in many ways. And Japan did them with good will, not a malicious mind as Korean texbooks always say.
    .
    As for the annexation, as I have mentioned before, I don’t praise it. But it was a history. And it was done legally as worldwide scholars of international law admitted.
    .
    I think the annexation was the second best choice for them, the best thing was of course the independence. But unfortunately it was difficult, and the biggest political party in Korea 一進会 requested Japan to annex Korea.
    There were pros and cons in the Japanese cabinet. The reasons of the opposites were economic one – Japan herself was not a rich country in those days so they thought it would be hard for Japan to keep paying lots of money to improve Korean situation and make her a good country.
    But in the end, they decided to annex Korea. It was a tragic but brave resolution for Japan.
    Do you think it was due to imperialism and they intended to invade Korea? Oh no.
    .

    I haven’t hear your opinion about the failure of postwar purge in japanese society. Any comment on this? Is there other
    japanese to talk about this failure?

    .
    I can’t understand what you asked. purge? What do you want to purge while there is no traces of imperialism in Japan today.
    What do you call “imperialism”? Japan is not an “empire” any more.
    After the WWII all the social systems were changed. The Occupation Forces (almost USA) destroyed all the old Japanese systems and re-built new systems including the educational system. Teachers Union (Nikkyoso), new comer after the WWII, are sympathizers of the Socialist Party, they taught in school what Japan did was wrong.
    .
    Korean media used to say “Japanese imperialism” appeared again when PM of Japan visited Yasukini, or when Shimane prefecture made a day of Takeshima.
    But Japanese people can’t understand why they say the word “imperialim”.
    .
    To me, Korea has more imperialistic factor than Japan today. They occupied Japan’s island brutally and killed Japanese fishermen (maybe you don’t know about these facts). They have strong arms and belligerent. I was chilled to see the people of Korea saying in an TV interview, “kill all the Japanese” or “drop atomic bombs onto Japan” etc.
    And the propaganda of the Korean government to hate Japan sounds like military Japan’s slogan in the 1940’s – “鬼畜米英” (USA and UK are devil or ogre).
    What do you think?

  29. comment number 29 by: stannn

    hi pacifist,

    No, your opinion is Korean standard, not a standard in the world.
    You should not include all the things happned during the half a century as a whole in the word “imperialism”.
    .
    Both of the Sino-Japanese and Russo-Japanese wars were not related with the imperialism of the 1940’s. They were victories for Japan (and for also Korea) but not for imperialism. And these were the wars to protect Japan (and also Korea), not invasive ones.

    Japan did fight with China and Russia for the control of Chosun. And its victories led to the annexation of Chosun. And japan used chosun later as its base to invade Manchuria and mainland china. Wasn’t this an imperialistic actions? Wasn’t Britain’s acquisition of India an imperialistic move?

    here’s the defintion of imperialism from wiki.

    Imperialism is the policy of extending a nation’s authority by territorial acquisition or by the establishment of economic and political hegemony over other nations, countries, or colonies. This is either through direct territorial conquest or settlement, or through indirect methods of influencing or controlling the politics and/or economy. The rule of authority of a country is based on territory, economic establishment and political influence.

    Are you just plain ignorant or playing some games to make you look bad?
    I cannot help but suspect your true intention. Are you some sort of sophisticated anti-japanist to propagate bad
    prejudices on other innocent japanese peoples?

    Japanese imperialism was coninued without a discontinuous change until the end of WWII.
    Moreover, it got worse to the level of fascism at the end. Maybe when you mean “the imperialism of the 1940’s”, you mean this sort of fascism?

    Korean textbooks of history have not explained the situation of the Yi Dynasty, which was the direct reasons of these wars. They only shift the responsibility onto Japanese imperialism, but it is not right.
    .

    Have you ever read korean history textbook that describes the situations of the end of Yi dynasty and annexation? It describe the end of Yi dynasty as helpless and too stubborn to accept the western civilization and Chosun’s seclusion policy and its backward system as main reasons for becoming the victim of imperialism.

    As for the annexation, as I have mentioned before, I don’t praise it. But it was a history. And it was done legally as worldwide scholars of international law admitted.
    .

    Why did you stop saying your theory of “peaceful annexation” and change into
    “legal annexation”?

    I can’t understand what you asked. purge? What do you want to purge while there is no traces of imperialism in Japan today.
    What do you call “imperialism”? Japan is not an “empire” any more.
    After the WWII all the social systems were changed. The Occupation Forces (almost USA) destroyed all the old Japanese systems and re-built new systems including the educational system. Teachers Union (Nikkyoso), new comer after the WWII, are sympathizers of the Socialist Party, they taught in school what Japan did was wrong.
    .

    I will just quote what I said in the previous comment.

    Isn’t it true that people served in imperialistic japan, later became PMs or other government officials of postwar japan? and their descendents are still having the hegemony in japanese society?
    Aren’t these people the ones who seek to revise the constitution, downplay wartime atrocities, the very example, PM Shinzo Abe?

    To me, Korea has more imperialistic factor than Japan today. They occupied Japan’s island brutally and killed Japanese fishermen (maybe you don’t know about these facts). They have strong arms and belligerent. I was chilled to see the people of Korea saying in an TV interview, “kill all the Japanese” or “drop atomic bombs onto Japan” etc.
    And the propaganda of the Korean government to hate Japan sounds like military Japan’s slogan in the 1940’s – “鬼畜米英” (USA and UK are devil or ogre).
    What do you think?

    Do you think korea is imperialistic?
    Do you seriously think korea has the ambition to colonize japan and enslave japanese people for its interest?
    Maybe confusing imperialism with nationalism?

    Which country spends more money to buy arms?
    Aren’t Korean military a deterrent against a possible invasion of NK?
    Do you think that korean people really want to “kill all the japanese” or “drop atomic bombs onto japan”?
    Don’t you think that it might be emotional outbursts against the japanese actions on Dokdo and Yaskuni?
    And I am just curious where’s the korean government’s propaganda to hate japan which sounds like “USA and UK are devil or ogre”?
    Do you mean korean government officially calls the japanese as devil or orge or something like that?

  30. comment number 30 by: pacifist

    Hi stannn,
    .

    Japan did fight with China and Russia for the control of Chosun. And its victories led to the annexation of Chosun.

    .
    No, your theory is wrong. It is the same theory as Japanese left wing theory (and Korean government’s theory).
    .
    As I’ve mentioned before, Sino-Japanese war was to liberate Chosun from Qing. Russo-Japanese war was to protect Japan (and also Chosun) from Russia’s expansionism.
    As a result with these two wars, Korea could be independent free from Qing and was not invaded by Russia.
    .
    The Russo-Japanese war ended in 1905. And the annexation occured in 1910.
    You can’t overlook these five years.
    There were lots of arguments inside the Japanese government before the annexation. (As you know now, Hirobumi Itoh was against the annexation but unfortunately he was assasinated in 1909.)
    .
    So it is nonsense to say that Russo-Japanese war was to annex Chosun.
    .

    And japan used chosun later as its base to invade Manchuria and mainland china. Wasn’t this an imperialistic actions?

    .
    I always say that the wars in China and the Pacific War were different from the first two wars.
    After the Russo-Japanese war (1904-1905), there was a period called “Taisho era” (1912~1926) when the democratic movement was strengthened (so-called Taisho democracy). During these days, the worldwide disarmament was done and Japanese navy sank some battleships. Until these days, Japanese army and navy were controlled by the government and the Diet. After then, Japanese army was on the rise and became to control the Diet and government. This was the beginning of imperialism – so, imperialism accompanied with militarism.
    .

    Isn’t it true that people served in imperialistic japan, later became PMs or other government officials of postwar japan? and their descendents are still having the hegemony in japanese society?

    .
    Your recognition of imperialism seems to be wrong. It’s different from Nazism. The imperialism or militarism may have been ordered by the leader of the army or navy but as a whole officials were not always responsible for the war.
    If you purged all the persons who worked for the military Japan, there would be no persons left who could be a PM or a politician except criminals or anarchists who were in prisons during the war but this is impractical.
    .
    If you still say that persons who worked for military Japan were not adequate, how about SK’s President Park Jeon-hee? He graduated from Japan’s military school and was a lieutenant in Japan’s army when the war ended.
    .

    Do you think korea is imperialistic?

    At least, Korea seems to be more militaristic than Japan.
    .
    It is funny that the two countries, China and SK, who always blame Japan for “imperialism” are militaristic.
    They only utilize the word “imperialism” for their domestic administration and to turn world’s eyes from their expansion in armaments.

  31. comment number 31 by: stannn

    hey pacifist,

    I am getting tired of arguing with you about this silly idea of imperialism. It is only you pacifist and other rightwing nuts in japan that believe that Sino-Japanese&Russo-Japanese wars were not imperialistic moves.

    I always say that the wars in China and the Pacific War were different from the first two wars.
    After the Russo-Japanese war (1904-1905), there was a period called “Taisho era” (1912~1926) when the democratic movement was strengthened (so-called Taisho democracy). During these days, the worldwide disarmament was done and Japanese navy sank some battleships. Until these days, Japanese army and navy were controlled by the government and the Diet. After then, Japanese army was on the rise and became to control the Diet and government. This was the beginning of imperialism – so, imperialism accompanied with militarism.
    .

    It doesn’t mattter whether the military was controlled by the Diet or not. British was the imperialist even though they were democratic. You are just trying to define imperialism in your own narrow sense which is not accepted from the outside world.

    If you still say that persons who worked for military Japan were not adequate, how about SK’s President Park Jeon-hee? He graduated from Japan’s military school and was a lieutenant in Japan’s army when the war ended.
    .

    That’s one of the reason why he got criticized for. And SK has done to clean up
    the imperial japan’s relics.

    At least, Korea seems to be more militaristic than Japan.
    .
    It is funny that the two countries, China and SK, who always blame Japan for “imperialism” are militaristic.
    They only utilize the word “imperialism” for their domestic administration and to turn world’s eyes from their expansion in armaments.

    What do you mean by “more militaristic”?

    Does it mean that the military is controlling
    the government like the 1940’s japan?
    Or it means that the country is spending more money for the military?

    Korean military is controlling the government?
    Or Korea is spending more money for the arms?

    You are just misusing the word “militaristic” like “imperialism”.

    Maybe what you want to say is “more nationalistic”, right?

    Anyway, I am tired of arguing about this silly “imperalism”. If you don’ accept the generally accepted definition of the word,
    “imperialism”, I think it is meaningless
    to furthur argue with you.

    Ciao

  32. comment number 32 by: pacifist

    stannn,
    .

    Anyway, I am tired of arguing about this silly “imperalism”. If you don’ accept the generally accepted definition of the word,
    “imperialism”, I think it is meaningless
    to furthur argue with you.

    Ciao

    .
    Okay, I understand that your understanding of the history is the same as what the Korean government wanted to believe their people.
    But I advise you to learn your country’s true history from western countries.
    .
    Annyon-higeseyo

  33. comment number 33 by: pacifist

    Hey all,
    .
    I know this is an old topic.
    But I want you to read the following.
    .
    This is from the preface of Kim Wansop’s book “親日派のための弁明・2” (explanation for jin-il pa/ part.2) that was published in revised small size edition (a kind of paperback) in autumn 2006.
    .
    Please correct the names of Korean people. I just translated the names from Japanese text, so it may include some mistakes.
    .

    I experienced the humiliation of indiscriminate violence from the seats for the public before policemen and politicians when I participated in the public hearing on the bill in November last year (2003).

    I was badly injured by terrorists including a murderer when I was in the court as a defendant in October 2004. Although it was a ridiculous criminal trial that wouldn’t be valid in Japan or in USA, we have to go to the court at the risk of our lives.

    The murderer who attacked at me was Park Kiso, an anti-Japan activist, who murdered Mr. An Duhee, 78, at his residence. Mr. An Duhee had been sentenced to death at the army court after shooting Kim Gu in 1949 when he had been a second lieutenant of the army. They suspended excusion of the sentence in 1950 when the Korean War occurred and he returned to the army as the director of the army. After that, Mr. An became a target of persistent attacks by anti-Japan terrorists. After he kept run away, he was murdered by Park Kiso.

    The problem is that correspondence of Korea (Korean government) toward Park Kiso was strange. He was only given 3-year sentence. In addition, he was released from a prison after one and a half years because of the special pardon in 1998 when the Kim Dae-Jung’s government started. It was a rare case to release a first-class murderer in one and a half years, which may mean that Korean court and Korean government gave Korean people a license to kill, saying “nobody cares if jin-il pa dies”. A mediocre bus driver, Park Kiso, got titles like “executer of An Duhee” or “assemblyman” and could pose as a hero. He seems to intend to leave behind the reputation as the “executer of Kim Wansop” this time.

    As the Korean society is in such a atmosphere, intellectuals are in bad situation that they can’t utter a word even if they have a will. One can assume the distress of the intellectuals if you review what happened recently to Prof. Yi Yonhung (Seoul Univ. school of economy).

    I wrote in the former book “explanation for the jin-il pa” the following: “According to the proposal by the Prof. Satoshi Nakamura of Kyoto Univ, 16 Japanese and Korean scholars, including An Byonjik, participated in the study group working on modern Korean economy”.
    This group is called as “落星台(Naksonde) group” as they are active through the “落星台 study goup” in Korea. After Prof. An Byonjik retired at the age limit and moved to Fukui Prefectural Univ (in Japan) several years ago, the group is led by Prof. Yi Yonhung.

    Yi Yonhung appeared on TV program “MBC 100-minute discussion” in September 2004 and uttered some remarks concerning the comfort women, which caused a big fuss in the Korean society for several days. His points of argument were vague and confused but as a whole he said “there was no forced comfort women”, “you must see comfort women as public prostitutes”, “there were also comfort women during the Korean War and the Yunrak-ka beside the American Forces stationed in Korea is a kind of comfort women” etc.

    A member of Congress, Son Yongil from Uri party, was there as one of the panelists.
    When he asked Yi “I believe that they were forced to go but if you insist that they were not, do you say that they went voluntarily?”, Yi evaded the question and left the point off. I’m sure that Yi’s answer should be “Yes” but he couldn’t say so when he thought the situation after that.

    From the next day, Yi Yonhung became to receive the pressure to resign the professorship of Seoul University from female organizations and female members of Congress and opinions to punish Yi Yonhung gathered on internet bulletin boards. A fellow professor of the school of economy, Seoul university, announced a statement “study history straight, or stub me and Prof. Yi together with a sword”.
    After the situation went worth, Prof. Yi Yonhung visited the site of camp of comfort women next day and apologized on his knee and said simultaneously the following: “My real intention was wrongly taken and spread. Comfort women are anti-humankind and criminal thing”. After this fact was reported, the situation subsided. Yi Yonhung endured such a humiliation to protect the position in Seoul University but he may have greatly injured mentally. And through this event Koreans made Yi Yonhung submit and gave a lesson to people that even great intellectuals can not say about history following the dictates of their conscience.
    I watched this event and it reminded of Galileo’s Inquisition.
    …………

    I am at the moment saying along with my conscience, I have to keep running as a fugitive as long as I am not succumbed. I have no great worries because I let my family escape to another country. But for the persons who have families and jobs here, the best thing for them to do is just what Yi Yonhung did.

    “In the society in those days of Nittei, we could live without laws.” This was the word one of my relatives said to me.

    “There are many people who are yearning madly for the days. So when there is a party, they sing ‘Enka (old-styled Japanese popular song)’ shedding tears”. This is what my parents said to me.

    “If I ask my classmates `Don’t you think that it was better in those days than today? We had a joy to live then.’, 90 % of them will agree”. This is what my old friend who was born in 1930 said to me.

    “As the Koreans who were forced to go to Hokkaido received high salary which was 3 times to 5 times higher than Japanese white collars and working hours were strictly kept, it seemed that they enjoyed happiness”. This is what Mr. Che Giho said to me.

    All of these comments may be tremendously shocking to the generation after the war in Korea who grew receiving the anti-Japan brainwashing education. Why weren’t they told these memories that everybody had in mind?

    Today in Korea, people from the after-the-war generation who noticed the “truth” of the history are increasing in geometrical progression. Intellectuals who dared to say the truth bravely are increasing one by one. The history dispute in Korea is not a discussion, it’s a war. It may be looked as an issue of history but actually it is a fight toward the freedom of speech, one of the basic human rights. To our surprise, Koreans don’t know even the fact that we have no freedom of speech in this country. I hope the Japanese readers of my book will support the change in Korea.

    October 2004
    In Swan, Kyongido