Occidentalism
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Toadface Claims Limited Connections with Koreans

March 1st, 2007 . by Gerry-Bevers

Steve Barber, who is also known as Toadface, Frogmouth, Wedgie, and possibly other names, and who manages a Web site at www.Dokdo-Takeshima.com, wrote the following:

Kanganese, don’t lump me together with other Koreans on the Dokdo issue. I have done my studies on this subject on my own. My only connection with Koreans on this is for gathering maps and documents. Unlike Ponta and Pacifist I’m not an errand-boy for my local political organization such as Shimane Prefecture. I’m not Korean nor am I a part of a political movement like Ponta.

The following is an August 31, 2006 letter from Steve Barber (Toadface) to a Mr. Cho, who appears to have been a member or who has an association with members of the anti-Japanese Web site, Killzap.cafe:

—–Original Message—–
From: steve barber [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2006 1:01 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Hanmaumy

Dr Mr Cho:

I went onto Hanmaumy’s website and just by the visual images I saw I can say his website is the best I’ve ever seen !! I’m very impressed.

The problem is that it is all in Korean language. Koreans already believe Dokdo is Korean land so Hanmaumy is in a sense wasting his time. We must get this valuable information out to the global community. If the Dokdo issue ever goes to the ICJ it is absolutely necessary that all of the related information be available to the public in English.

Mr Cho I must stress these days there are more Japanese working with foreigners promoting Takeshima is Japanese and they are doing it in English while working with idiots like Gerry Bevers. Like after WW2 Korea isn’t getting its message out there about Dokdo.

That being said, Mr Lovmo’s site is up and running and I’ve been working on my own to try to gather information and translate it but to be honest my lack of ability in Korean language makes it impossible to gather images on some of these Korean National Archives Websites because they are totally in Korean.

We should use Mr Lovmo’s site because it is already quite popular and it has the greatest amount of exposure on the English/Foreign Internet.

Please me must work together to get the message out there. I will do my best. In addtion please tell Hanmaumy I am going to gather images from his website and translate as well as I can for Mark.

I would love to meet both of you someday.

Yours Truly:
Steve

Link to my post on Mr. Barber’s letter.

So, Toadface, your “only connection with Koreans on this is for gathering maps and documents”? No other connection? By the way, Toadface, could you get me a cup of coffee?


49 Responses to “Toadface Claims Limited Connections with Koreans”

  1. comment number 1 by: GarlicBreath

    It’s really amusing to read that. You would think he would have some dignity the way he makes comments. Its pretty clear that he will grovel at the feet of Koreans.

    Little Stevie also went by the name zippertrout, until he got caught.

  2. comment number 2 by: pacifist

    toadface,

    idiots like Gerry Bevers

    .
    Am I supposed to be in the group?
    If so, it is my great honor. Thank you.

  3. comment number 3 by: Gerry-Bevers

    Thank you, Pacifist.

  4. comment number 4 by: Matt

    I wish Steve Barber would stop pretending he is someone else, like a disinterested third party, when trying to promote his website on other sites. I mean really, there is no reason to pretend to be anyone else.

    Anyway, at least Steve Barber stimulates discussion about Dokdo/Takeshima here. It would be much less interesting without him.

  5. comment number 5 by: James

    He has posted comments under both “wedgie” and “zippertrout” on Asia-Watch, which is pretty pathetic. He posted an ad for his website by acting like a third-party and saying that “an expat has started an in depth website.” Not exactly an honest way to get valuable information out to the global community…

  6. comment number 6 by: GarlicBreath

    Ponta and Pacifist, neither one of you are from shimone prefecture? right? and you don’t get paid for any of the efforts you put forth in any way right? I mean you are not an “errand-boy”. I think little Stevie is trying to drag your names in the mud, so even though his attack doesn’t deserve an answer, I think it would be good for the casual reader to answer his insulting comments with the truth.

  7. comment number 7 by: ponta

    Ponta and Pacifist, neither one of you are from shimone prefecture? right? and you don’t get paid for any of the efforts you put forth in any way right?

    Right.

  8. comment number 8 by: Kaneganese

    The more he says something, the more he make mistakes and contradicts himself because what he is trying to do is piling up illogical misinterpretation and misrepresentation of the things on historical uncertainity. The more he says something, the more he reveals his information about what kind of he really is and what he really want to do. I have already warned him, but he didn’t listen to me.

  9. comment number 9 by: toadface

    First of all the letter I posted was posted on the board of Haunmaumy’s website and then forwarded to naver. As Gerry Bevers himself quoted it doesn’t mean I’m a member. Which of course I’m not. I don’t even know if it is possible as I think you need a Korean resident number to register at naver……. I dunno.

    About a month later Mr Cho sent me an e-mail apologizing for the letter having been posted on another forum. You can see the e-mail address at the top was to Mr Cho and not to killjap or whatever.

    Anyway, I stand by the position I took when I posted the letter and that is there are some pretty good Dokdo websites run by Koreans out there. They are certainly better than anything the Korean Dokdo “museums” are posting. So I simply asked Hanmaumy and Mr Cho for permission to borrow some images such as maps etc.,
    No big scandal Gerry sorry.

    I posted on anonymous handles regarding Dokdo for years on this issue. There is really no need for me to attach my personal identity to a historical political dispute now is there? Unlike Mr Bevers, I didn’t get involved in the Dokdo issue for personal attention or publicity and I simply don’t feel the need.

    At any rate my identity is out there so….. Why don’t Ponta, Pacifist, Matt all come clean and do the same? It’s only fair right? Ponta, you post my name ad nauseum on this forum. So who the Hell are you? I know you run this Japanese right wing website because I caught you pilfering images from mine.

    The truth is I’m killing the Japanese argument for Takeshima and they can’t handle the heat. Now as they did in September they are desparate and tying to dredge up an old article to take this to a personal level. This forum is trying to turn the Dokdo, a historical/political dispute into something it isn’t, a personal dispute.

    The above letter you posted is months old and already was posted I think way back last fall. Why are you posting it again Gerry? Is it because I’m killing the Japanese historical claim to Dokdo?

    The reason is clear. I have began to post the truth about Japan’s military involvement in Korea at the time Dokdo was annexed that proves their claim has zero merit.
    http://www.dokdo-takeshima.com/dokdo-territory-annexations.html
    http://www.dokdo-takeshima.com/dokdo-territory-annexations2.html
    http://www.dokdo-takeshima.com/dokdo-territory-annexations3.html

    Hanmaumy has been improving his website lately and has some new maps and documents you can find them here and maybe you can learn the truth about Dokdo.

    http://dokdo.naezip.net/

    Gerry I understand you speak Korean quite well. About a few months ago Hanmaumy repeatedly invited you to discuss/debate the Dokdo issue on his website but you didn’t. Why not?

  10. comment number 10 by: toadface

    Garlicbreath. The reason I called Ponta an errand boy is because he actually buys into the argument of both the Japanese Foreign Ministry and Shimane Prefecture. I’ve repeatedly said on this forum I don’t agree with everything the Korean government says about Dokdo. In other words, I gather my own information and make my own conclusions. Then I back them with maps and documents.

  11. comment number 11 by: kteen

    So it means that I’ve been talking to 단체 꼴통들 all this time.
    No wonder…

  12. comment number 12 by: pacifist

    toadface,

    I don’t agree with everything the Korean government says about Dokdo.

    .
    Then, why are you always saying the same thing as Koreangovernemnt7s propaganda?

  13. comment number 13 by: Gerry-Bevers

    You did more than just ask “Hanmaumy and Mr Cho for permission to borrow some images such as maps etc.,…” You said you wanted to “work together to get the message out there,” which is fine, but just stop pretending you are some neutral party in the dispute.

    Your comment to Kaneganese, in which you essentially claimed to be working alone, is what prompted me to repost your letter.

    Why do you need more than one annonymous handle, Toadface? Why do you promote your Web site as if you are some neutral third party? And if you are killing the Japanese argument, why doesn’t your Web site have a message board on it so that people can congratulate you?

    If Hanmaumy finds errors in my arguments, he is welcome to come here and point them out, as are you. Personally, I do not have time to wade through the bullshit on Hanmaumy’s site or yours and make arguments to walls of denial. I would rather spend my time discussing the maps and documents with people who are actually interested in finding the truth, rather than hiding it.

  14. comment number 14 by: Kaneganese

    Toadface,
    Are you sure your logicand conclusion are original as you stated above? Because I found a book written by Korean Professor (and donated by someone to the library) in the local library. I haven’t read it through yet, but it looks like he uses the same logic just like you do. Is this just a coincidence? or are you working with some professional?

  15. comment number 15 by: wiesunja

    BUSTED! This is awesome. I seriously think that Toadface (Steve Barber) must have some sort of drop of Korean blood because there is no way that a non-Korean could display such signs of cowardice, lying, and inferiority complex as shown here by our resident word twister and question avoider. As the world knows, Koreans are the world’s experts at voiding to answer questions, lying, twisting words. It would be nice if those were Olympic events since Korea would dominate hands down…would give them something else to revel and boast about as they always do. LOL.

    Well, I guess running out with your tail between your legs is the only other option other than to sidestep the truth and deceitfully try to blame the other party as Steve Barber has shown. Come on, Barber…just admit you are a brainwashed urinara cretin whose sole joy in life is to kill “zap”. Give me a break…your character and behavior are as subtle as a tornado.

  16. comment number 16 by: kteen

    wiesunja,
    Can you show some proof that ALL KOREANS show ‘cowardice, lying and inferiority complex…BS’? Isn’t it YOU who’s showing the cowardice and lies?

    and kaneganese,
    Is it coincidential that we’re both humans?

  17. comment number 17 by: toadface

    Gerry, I have never said I’m neutral at all. Check the first page of my website I cleary state it supports Korea’s claim to Dokdo Island.

    Actually I’ve been trying to contact Mr Cho for some time but he hasn’t answered my e-mails. I have never personally talked to Hanmaumy himself as his English skills are very poor and he is a little embarrassed about that. But he assured me that I am allowed to borrow any images in the future if I like. Actually he also linked to my website without my consent but he has been very generous to me so I see no problem with that at all.

    Initially as my letter said, I thought it would be a good idea to use Mark Lovmo’s site to help Korea get their side of the story out as it is well established and has a lot of exposure. But it seemed more time effective to simply make my own website. It’s clear the best Korean websites on Dokdo are not in English so I’ve always thought the best information supporting Korea’s claim isn’t getting out there.

    You also misunderstand my “don’t lump me together with other Koreans” quote. What I mean is unlike the Ponta and Pacifist I don’t simply parrot and mindlessly repeat what the Korean (Japanese) foreign ministry tells me. If you check Ponta’s website you can see it just a cut and paste dumping ground of basically every political cause right wing Japanese activists are mired in these days. I have zero interest in Korean political causes outside of the Dokdo issue.

    Kanganese I do use some information from Korean and Japanese English resources. Many of my initial leads on documents were obtained from various editions of the Korean Observer, from there I sourced the original documents and maps from either books or internet blogs or websites.

    Gerry, who are you to question one’s motives for taking a stance on any issue. Expats South of the 38th parallel have been listening to you harp on all Korean political issues for at least a decade never ONCE taking the Korean side.

    Atta boy weisunja!! Nice quote, you’re doing a great job helping the world understand Japan’s claim to Dokdo.

  18. comment number 18 by: Kaneganese

    Toadface,
    “In other words, I gather my own information and make my own conclusions.”
    “I sourced the original documents and maps from either books or internet blogs or websites”
    You are contradicting yourself again.

    By the way, I already warned you that your friend Hanmaumy quotes 蔚陵島事蹟 wrongfully. You should tell him that Japanese already knows that and we think he is a liar. If he keeps doing that, it simply means he intentionally lying and hiding the fact by omitting important sentences of the page.
    You don’t understand Japanese at all. Unlike Korean, Japanese tend not to act aggressively when they really get angry, instead, they keep calm and try to find the way to fight back. Actually, we are not desperate at all. We are enjoying the discussion very much though your attitudes are bit annoying. And actually, we are talking very happily to observe you restarted attacking Gerry, opp, and others with lots of insulting words just after opp set his site and Matt suggested the database. It is you who are desperate. You are so predictable and almost cute. Thanks to your silence, I noticed 蔚陵島事蹟 has some serious meanings to Korean. It reveals not only that modern Korean are lying to hide the fact, but also the Choson officials are also manipulative to add new sentences in the official documents when they copy the old documents so that they can prove something they want to. But thank God, they made crucial mistake by putting too much information. And now we know that 于山島 was definately Jukdo.
    I have been enjoyning finding your mistakes for the last few weeks, but as Gerry says, finding truth is more attractive to me. This must end now. If you want to talk about military thingy, set BBS on your site and discuss the issue you are interested in there.

  19. comment number 19 by: GarlicBreath

    Stevie, as a bagman for your korean masters, can I ask you if you have any self respect? I know many English teachers, like yourself, who work for Koreans, who still have dignity. You seem to be the type that will eagerly lick the boots of any passing Korean. What happened to you to make you such a groveling worm?

  20. comment number 20 by: GarlicBreath

    By the way, no offence to Koreans. If Kteen or any other kyopo ordered you to lick the dirt of their boots, I think that you (stevie) are free to do that. Its your choice. I just wonder why you (stevie) are so eager to debase yourself.

  21. comment number 21 by: crypticlife

    It was a waste of neurotransmitters for me to read this. I don’t need to be told who’s biased.

    Of course, it IS good to know he’s recommending his own site “anonymously”. And, stating falsehoods (“errand-boy for Shimane prefecture” sounds exactly like he’s implying a an employment connection), well, I find that pretty slimy. Perhaps “toadface” is a well-chosen appellation.

    Or, perhaps he could respond to, “Why do you promote your Web site as if you are some neutral third party?”

    And wiesunja, don’t be stupid.

  22. comment number 22 by: ponta

    Toadface

    Ponta, you post my name ad nauseum on this forum. So who the Hell are you? I know you run this Japanese right wing website because I caught you pilfering images from mine.

    As I said before, I enjoy your speculation about my indentity. I for one don’t care whether someone consider me the owerner of the site, or not. And when you start talking of it, it is a sign that you are cornered:you try to change the topic because I posted your deadend situation.
    ttp://www.occidentalism.org/?p=522#comment-14903

    And for people who are interested in what his
    reasoning ability is like, here is how he got
    the conclusion that “he caught me pilfering images from mine.”

    (By the way it seems the image he alleged below “I””stole” seems to be Japanese maps and Japanese newspaper)

    Who is the hack who runs this website and who gave them the permission to pilfer images from my website.

    Can’t they do their own research?

    Anyway whoever it is says on this map Songdo is dokdo!!

    Japanese Bullshitter Busted!!

    Is that you Ponta ???

    Shame shame shame……

    ttp://gopkorea.blogs.com/flyingyangban/2005/04/warningnbsp_thi.html#comment-26494958
    He is not conlusive.But for some reason, lateer for some reason, he concluded I stole the image of Japanese map from his site. We’ll see it later.

    And JK joins

    You are so pathetic, ponta.

    ttp://gopkorea.blogs.com/flyingyangban/2005/04/warningnbsp_thi.html#comment-26533972

    Lastly Ponta is that your website that uses my material and quotes songdo as dokdo? I think it is clear it is.

    Ponta’s doubletalk revealed

    ttp://gopkorea.blogs.com/flyingyangban/2005/04/warningnbsp_thi.html#comment-26542416
    Great ability of reasoning, isn’t it?
    And JK cheer leads.

    Guess we know what the answer is, wedgie. Ponta is deceptive and lives up to the stereotype held by many people in this world that is unfortunately associated with the Japanese.

    ttp://gopkorea.blogs.com/flyingyangban/2005/04/warningnbsp_thi.html#comment-26552716
    See how great his reasoning ability is.

    Ponta I can’t believe you still have the nerve to post here after you been exposed as a double-talking Japanese right wing activist. You’ve been insisting Songdo (松島) is not Dokdo on this blog and then you post on your blog Songdo is Dokdo. Why should we believe anything you post when it is obvious even you don’t?
    Proof of Double Talk

    Then you scam images from my website without my consent and hotlink link my site without asking me.

    It’s clear you have zero credibility here Ponta. It’s also clear by your website you will do anything to promote Japanese right wing politcal causes ranging from the Nanjing Massacre, the Korean comfort woment issue to border disputes with China.

    ttp://gopkorea.blogs.com/flyingyangban/2005/04/warningnbsp_thi.html#comment-26553351
    Now I am supposed to be a horrible right winger. looks like he does not want me to join the discussion. Why? Anyway,Great argument,isn’t it?
    And I complain.

    I regret to say again that the slander and changing subject is a sign that you are cornered.

    ttp://gopkorea.blogs.com/flyingyangban/2005/04/warningnbsp_thi.html#comment-26585745
    JK still does not understand what is going on.

    I’d also like to know why he is stealing images from my website. “

    ttp://gopkorea.blogs.com/flyingyangban/2005/04/warningnbsp_thi.html#comment-26593368
    Toadface agrees with JK

    JK is dead right on this. Ponta has been shown to be decietful and dishonest by stealing from my website without my permission. Why should we trust anything you guys say when you’ve been proven both wrong and dishonest?

    ttp://gopkorea.blogs.com/flyingyangban/2005/04/warningnbsp_thi.html#comment-26595576
    A typical style of Toadface’s language when he was cornered.

    No wait I’ll just link you to my post above.
    Ponta and Pacifist Goofed

    ttp://gopkorea.blogs.com/flyingyangban/2005/04/warningnbsp_thi.html#comment-26599071

    My comment on his speculatoin.

    p.s.
    I enjoy your speculation about my identity.
    But why don’t you comment on Zero’s blog about your complaint? It is irrelevant to this discussion here.

    ttp://gopkorea.blogs.com/flyingyangban/2005/04/warningnbsp_thi.html#comment-26612882
    And his excellent reasoning.

    So let me get this straight Ponta. I post images from my blog here on December 11, 2006 right after I make them.
    Image 1
    Next thing I know my images are on this right-wing Japanese (YOUR) blog on the same day!!? This ZERO blog is also the blog you link to on occidentalism.
    Image 2

    ttp://gopkorea.blogs.com/flyingyangban/2005/04/warningnbsp_thi.html#comment-26622591
    Image 2 is the image of Japanese newspaper.
    Keep in mind, this is his way of reasoning;he
    baselessly equates the the blog “zero” with Japanese right winger’s , and Japanese right winger with me.

    I suggested

    ps….If you want to keep complaining, please file a complaint on Zero. It is messing up the discussion.

    ttp://gopkorea.blogs.com/flyingyangban/2005/04/warningnbsp_thi.html#comment-26623940

    JK’s way of debating.

    ponta, I wonder when you will acknowledge that you stole maps from wedgie’s site. Or will you avoid admitting your guilt the way the Japanese avoid mentioning how they stole Dokdo in 1906?

    ttp://gopkorea.blogs.com/flyingyangban/2005/04/warningnbsp_thi.html#comment-26678242

    Amazing. Ponta still avoids the question if he stole wedgie’s maps and he avoids facing the charge that he lied about the Japanese fishermen.

    ttp://gopkorea.blogs.com/flyingyangban/2005/04/warningnbsp_thi.html
    JK, in addtion to his faulty logic, does he realize what he is tallking about is the image of Japanese newspaper?
    And my final words to JK
    JK

    God loves you whether you realise it or not.
    I pray for your health, especially mental health

    ttp://gopkorea.blogs.com/flyingyangban/2005/04/warningnbsp_thi.html#comment-26916833

    …….It was fun, wan’t it Steve Barber? a.k.a, wedgie\toadface. I have enojoyed your speculation.

    For the reader, the forum above was not my fan site, but believe it or not, it was the forum about Dokdo/Takeshima.

    Now let’s get back to the topic, Steve.

  23. comment number 23 by: ponta

    By the way, let’s not attack Steve’s character.
    I still believe he loves Korea and his love
    for Korea is making him do what he is doing, though I doubt if his kind of love is contributing to Korean society.

  24. comment number 24 by: claire

    So it means that I’ve been talking to 단체 꼴통들 all this time.
    No wonder…

    Kteen,
    I’m glad you finally realize. In addition, I would also say that wiesunja is the 꼴통 시다발.

  25. comment number 25 by: ponta

    claire

    So it means that I’ve been talking to 단체 꼴통들 all this time.
    No wonder…

    Kteen,
    I’m glad you finally realize.

    Clare and Kteen agree that the people here are
    단체 꼴통들 団体バカたち a group of stupid?

    Who are talking about and why?

  26. comment number 26 by: Braumeister

    The problem is that it is all in Korean language. Koreans already believe Dokdo is Korean land so Hanmaumy is in a sense wasting his time. We must get this valuable information out to the global community. If the Dokdo issue ever goes to the ICJ it is absolutely necessary that all of the related information be available to the public in English.

    Mr Cho I must stress these days there are more Japanese working with foreigners promoting Takeshima is Japanese and they are doing it in English while working with idiots like Gerry Bevers. Like after WW2 Korea isn’t getting its message out there about Dokdo.

    Hi, first time commenting, although not the first time here.

    I would like to say that what Steve is saying is a pile of crap. If you read the Wikipedia article on Takeshima, the article name is Dokdo, Korean names are listed before Japanese ones, only one link to a pro-Japanese website is listed compared to the 6 or so Pro-Korean websites, and a whole load of bias. Koreans are infecting should-be-neutral websites like Wikipedia, and you still call that not “getting its message out there about Dokdo”?

  27. comment number 27 by: Matt

    So it means that I’ve been talking to 단체 꼴통들 all this time.
    No wonder…

    kteen, we are not members of any organisation, and if this site is an organisation, then you are a member too.

  28. comment number 28 by: stumpjumper

    If you read the Wikipedia article on Takeshima, the article name is Dokdo,

    Wow, I didn’t know this. It should be listed as Liancourt Rock. Disturbing indeed.

  29. comment number 29 by: stumpjumper

    http://columbia.thefreedictionary.com/Liancourt+Rock

    Liancourt Rock = Dokdo on this one too because of the wikipedia article.

  30. comment number 30 by: hardyandtiny

    Q.
    a) Toadface
    b) Frogmouth
    c) Wedgie
    d) possibly other names

    A.
    c) Wedgie

  31. comment number 31 by: wiesunja

    This is a great example of Korean maturity:

    So it means that I’ve been talking to 단체 꼴통들 all this time. No wonder…

    I know many 5 year old children who behave the same way, calling anyone who basically shames and embarrasses them “stupid”. Funny how Korean adults behave the same way well into adulthood.

    would also say that wiesunja is the 꼴통 시다발.

    Coming from a Korean, I think that is a compliment. LOL!

  32. comment number 32 by: kteen

    단체 꼴통 is closer in meaning to ‘A group of bigots’. Nowhere did i mention ‘stupid’.
    and matt, if no one here is part of some organization, then what’s all this i hear about the shimane prefecture?

    and talking about maturity, i find it difficult to imagine a bunch of ignorant adults debating with a TEEN

  33. comment number 33 by: toadface

    Yes I have often posted under numerous aliases over the years. What’s the point Ponta? I’ve always posted the facts. And? Hardandtiny. Frogmouth, wedgie, toadface all of the above, and always with the same e-mail address, no big secret.

    You guys on occidentalism have been bawling for weeks to drag me here to dicus the Dokdo issue and this is all ya got? Some shoddy attempt to by Gerry Bevers to mudsling?

    Gerry this is really sad. Do you remember the days way back when you were really interested in studying “The history of Ulleungdo” Why did you stop? Did the history of Ulleungdo end in 1412??

    The nature of your last posts especially when you attacked Daniel Bareblatt (a man who has enough on the ball to publish a book) makes me wonder if the stress of the last few months has finally taken its toll on your mental health. Anyway reading his quotes here you can get a good idea of how the public in general regards this site.
    https://www.occidentalism.org/?p=512

    http://koreanlanguagenotes.blogspot.com/2006/08/what-is-history-of-ulleungdo-ch-20.html

    Kanganese you should know that the Japanese Foreign Ministry is lying. They say Takeshima/Dokdo is Japanese land since the Edo period. First we know that is not true because no Japanese maps show this to be true nor do any documents state this. Second the Japanese foreign ministry says that Ulleungdo was “opended up” in 1883 when in actuality they were deporting Japanese squatters from the island.

  34. comment number 34 by: Kaneganese

    Toadface,
    Hardandtiny, Frogmouth, wedgie, toadface, Steve Berber etc… what else? Mr. Toadface, this is pathetic. Next time you comment, please put a.k.a. toadface after your ID.
    And as for the Ministry of foreign affairs’ lie, could you explain it more precisely and show us a proof? I really don’t understand what you are trying to say.

    By the way, I think I referred the book that seemed to use same logic and conclusion with you, I finished reading it today. And I must admit that although logic (which is basically sophystry) and conclusion (which mainly based on a speculation) are exactly the same as you, but you certainly uses more information, documents and plenty of maps to support your conclusion. In that sence, you are definately well, not really original, but …I don’t know what to say. But I noticed that one thing was totally different between you and the author Dr. 金柄烈. He basically understand and apparently value the meaning of Japanese-Russia war and at leaset try to analyze the tactics of the Janpanese Navy objectively, while you are trying to manipulate the meanings of the war so that readers believe how Japanese Navy was evil and cunning and take advantage of that to make your conclusion looks like the fact.

  35. comment number 35 by: tomato

    The point is, there actually are Japanese maps and documents from the Edo period that depict Liancourt Rocks with quite accuracy, while there are NO Korean maps or documents that do so the same before 1905. So what is some Japanese maps don7t have Liancourt depicted? Japan did not have a centralized government anyways.

  36. comment number 36 by: toadface

    Kangenese, I don’t have to post my real name or handle if I don’t want to. Plain and simple. After seeing what happened to Gerry I baffles me why those on this forum are harping on the issue at all. I mean, give it a rest. I’ve seen Matt post with at least three other handles. Don’t be such a bunch of whining hypocrites.

    Kanganse, where to I say Japanese were cunning or evil.? That’s the problem with your argument. While I state historical fact, you (and occidentalism) are turning this into both a personal and emotional issue. Which it is not.

    Here are the pages detailing the Japanese appropriation of territory. Please point out where I say Japanese are “evil” if I say that I’ll certainly change it.
    http://www.dokdo-takeshima.com/dokdo-territory-annexations.html
    http://www.dokdo-takeshima.com/dokdo-territory-annexations2.html
    http://www.dokdo-takeshima.com/dokdo-territory-annexations3.html

    My argument is the issue of the 1905 Shimane Prefecture Inclusion and the Japanese~Russo War (Japanese Expansionism) are inseparable. Then I have presented genuine Japanese Military documents from both before the Japanese annexed Dokdo and after that verify Japan’s only real value in Dokdo was military.
    Through these records it’s a fact. If you can present a plausible theory as to why Japan suddenly annexed Dokdo during the midst of the largest war of the day I’d really like to hear it.

    It’s not just the Japanese Navy archives that show Japan’s military motives on Dokdo. The diary of Nakai Yozaburo from before September of 1904 shows he was help by ministers in the Japanese government because “it was urgent to install a watchtower and telegraph lines of Dokdo” at the time. You have to remember the Russians and Japanese had just fought the Battle of Ulsan at this time.

    As far as the Japanese ministry’s lie. It is historical fact in 1883 well over 200 Japanese foreigners were forcibly removed from Ulleungdo and again banned from voyaging there. It was the third time in history that Japanese were forbidden to travel to Ulleungdo.
    Here is the second time in 1837. In fact, the Japanese man who trespassed on Ulleungdo was executed.
    http://www.dokdo-tak

  37. comment number 37 by: toadface

    http://www.dokdo-takeshima.com/dokdo-1837doc.html
    Despite this Japanse encroachment on Ulleungdo continued to the point were Japanese police were stationed on Ulluengdo to control them. There is no proof Dokdo was considered part of Japanese land after the Edo era.

  38. comment number 38 by: Kaneganese

    Toadface,
    I said “a.k.a. toadface”, not your real name. This multiple ID strategy only means your code of ethics is extremely different from mine. It makes you and what you said are not worth to believe. You are like using 10 fingers with mini sockpuppets on each one and pretending that many people are talking, in fact it is only YOU who are speaking. Are they represnting yourself? Are they alter ego of yourself? I am getting more interested in what you say than what kind of person you are. This explains why you keep silence and ignoring Korean’s misuse, distortion and misinterpretation of 蔚陵島事蹟.

    I didn’t say you “say Japanese are evil”, I said “you are trying to manipulate the meanings of the war so that readers believe how Japanese Navy was evil and cunning”.
    ex. Japanese Expansionism and Asia→ What on the earth does this have to do with Takeshima? According to YOU, it was corporated into Japanese territory when Japanese are fighting withRuusia to invade Korea, right? You need to learn the history more. And if you keep doing this, I have to judge that you are trying to get sympathy from readers so that they believe Japanes expansionism has anything to do with Takeshima, which is totally incorrect misleading.

    “The protocol signed on February 23 1904, allowed the Japanese to occupy stragetegic areas of Korea to achieve the territorial integrity of Korea if endangered by the aggression of a third Power or internal disturbances.” This is what you wrote and that exactly explains why Japanese Navy DIDN’T HAVE TO INCORPORATE Takeshima even if they misconstrued the island is not our territory. And of course they knew Liancourt Rocks are Japanes territory. Read carefully Niitaka’s report. It clearly states Korean and Japanese call the island with different names, but Japanese fishermen was hunting sea lions every year, not Korean fishermen. And it is a Japanese document, not Korean. And it states Japanese were controlling economic activity not Korean. You have to find Korean document. Addition to that, your theory does’t explain why they didn’t incorporate 蔚島 secretaly.I can point out your mistakes on and on. Look, if you continue to explain based on half-truth and with a lots of speculation, you contradict yourself afterall and your explanation doesn’t make any sense.
    To complete your conspiracy theory, you have to excavate a new proof that Japanese navy asked 太政官 to incorporate Takeshima/Liancourt Rocks. I simply doubt that there are any of them, because I can easily believe they were not communicating well each other. This is called “縦割り行政” unfortunately.
    And of course all of above has nothing to do with sovereignty. But it was a good read. Very entertaining.

    By the way, I commented before this…I reiterate in case you didn’t notice. The geography text book( 2006 edition of “新しい社会科地図”東京書籍) of my daughter, which is approved by Ministry of Education, Culture, Sports, Science and Technology of Japan, has a page “中国地方(p59-60)” which include Shimane prefecture. And Voila! There is no Takeshima on that page!! just like the old maps on your site! Of course MEXT clearly understand Takeshima is Japanese territory, and states as “Takeshima is Japanese territory” in the book, but they don’t put it on that map. Not because they mean to exclude the Takeshima from Japanese territory, but simply because drawing every single tiny and distant islands to define the territory is not the purpose of the map. Every map has it’s own purpose and if it is not important to draw the island which is only 0.48km2 and inhabitable and locate beyond the limit of the page, they simply don’t draw the island. Look, Toad face, the maps do not show the soverignty. Please stop using beautiful and artistic old Japanese maps on your distorted site right away. They are off the table as a evidence.

  39. comment number 39 by: Kaneganese

    correction
    I am getting more interested in what you say than what kind of person you are.

    I am getting more interested in what kind of person you are than what you say.

    I do hope that you talk about yourself more. You sound like very interesting person yourself. Just for your information, I am a female.

  40. comment number 40 by: Kaneganese

    Toadface,
    “If you can present a plausible theory as to why Japan suddenly annexed Dokdo during the midst of the largest war of the day I’d really like to hear it.” Coincidence? I presume. I thought you know about 中井’s petition. But it is not my job to prove why they incorporated on that day. It is your job to prove your counterargument, sorry.

  41. comment number 41 by: toadface

    Wrong again Kangnase. Nakai didn’t believe Dokdo to be Japanese that’s why he applied to the Foreign Ministry for licence to hunt seals there. I also told you that his diary shows application to lease Dokdo was guided by Japanes officials who stated there was “an urgent need to install watchtowers and telegraph systems” on Dokdo well before the Japanese annexed the islands.

    Another point, these Japanese people were illegally based on Ulleungdo Island meaning in a sense the annexation of Dokdo was from Korea by Japanese squatters. In other words, nakai’s illegal activities on Korean territory were the whole foundation for his application to lease Dokdo.

    Kanganse, I’m not going to take credit or punishment for the widely accepted fact that Japan annexed Dokdo for military reasons. I’ve given the documents to prove it. As I’ve mentioned on this forum, the Japan’s military agenda for stealing Dokdo was introduced to me Japanese people NOT Koreans. People like Kazuo Hori, Hideki Kanjimura, Shojin Sato all wrote articles stating this as well. It is not my theory but can be seen as historical fact.

    I’ve dedicated a lot of space on my website about this era because the public knows very little about the Russo~Japanese War and how it related to Dokdo.

    I don’t need to “excavate” anything for you or any other Japanese Right Wing extremists that can’t accept the truth. The public will see the documents and make their own judgements. Any rational person will see that the issue of Dokdo and Japanese expansionism are inseparable. When they see the official Japanese Navy maps showing Dokdo as an integral part of Japan’s military plan this is the only logical conclusion.

    The Japanese didn’t have to incorporate Dokdo. But they did and the reasons for it were not legal. They didn’t have to “incorporate” Taiwan, or the Liandong Peninsula etc. But they did.

    Hear Ye!! Hear Ye!! Kanganese, has now declared all maps as off the table everyone!! What a riot you are. Maps show us the territorial perceptions of a country at a particular time. If Dokdo is not on National maps or Prefrecture Maps of Japan it is not part of Japan. The maps I’ve shown are of all kinds for all purposes and they are official. Simple.

  42. comment number 42 by: toadface

    Coincidence,????

    1. The Japanese government is recorded in nakai yozaburo’s application to lease Dokdo that “it is urgent to install telegraph lines and watchtowers on the island” this is in Sept 1904.

    2. The Japanese Cruiser Tsushima surveys Dokdo and reports although there is topographical difficulty, the construction of watchtowers on the East Island is possible. November 1904.

    3 The Japanese Incorportate Dokdo January 1905.

    5. The Japanese develop a detailed plan for the systems three days after the Battle of Tsushima in the waters near Ulleungdo and Dokdo. May 1905

    4 The Japanese construct watchtowers and install telegraph systems in August~September 1905.

    No coincidence. Just denial on your behalf.

  43. comment number 43 by: toadface

    Kanganese, Japanese historical maps of Shimane consistently use appendages to include small islands near Shimane to included these outer islands deemed part of Shimane.

    Even in the 1880’s the Japanesed appended maps to include maps of cities etc that were part of Shimane.

    These maps without exception included the tiny island of Minoshima and always excluded Dokdo.

    You can see these maps here.
    http://www.dokdo-takeshima.com/dokdo-shimane.html

    In addition in 1877 Shimane Prefecture Inquired as to whether or not Ulleungdo and “another island” were part of Shimane. This inquiry was for the purpose of remapping Japan.

    Before you get all excited about what “other island” was you must remember that Dokdo and Ulleungdo were not on Shimane Prefecture maps after the inquiry.

    You can see this document here.
    http://www.dokdo-takeshima.com/dokdo-1877-doc.html

  44. comment number 44 by: pacifist

    toadface,
    .

    Nakai didn’t believe Dokdo to be Japanese that’s why he applied to the Foreign Ministry for licence to hunt seals there.

    .
    Wrong again, toadface.
    Look at the mewspaer article here (though written in Japanese):
    http://www.sanin-chuo.co.jp/news/modules/news/article.php?storyid=334672006
    .
    At first Nakai saw a navigational chart(*) and misunderstood that Liancourt rocks belonged to Korea, so he intended to ask Korea in order to monopolize the right to hunt sealions there.
    .
    But executives from the Minstry of Agriculture and Commerce told him that there is no evidence of ownership of the island and there has been no traces of Koreans’ control.
    So Nakai asked Japanese government to incorporate the island and lend it to him.
    .
    (*)Later, the chart maker explained that Liancourt rocks didn’t belong to Korea, although it could be seen in the Korean chart. (toadface, remember that chart is for safe voyage, not for territorial claim.)
    .
    Nakai’s plea was first rejected by the Ministry of Interior with the reasons that it was not an adequate time as Russo-Japanese war was going on.
    It was after that Nakai asked executives in the Foreign Ministry. The rest is the histtory.
    .
    So toadface, you have to study the history once again. What you are taliking about is merely your imagination, but not true.

  45. comment number 45 by: toadface

    Pacifist, you’ve just proven you are talking out of your hat.

    First you say that Dokdo was part of Japan from the Edo era and now you give clear evidence the Japanese government didn’t consider it part of Japan at all just months before they annexed it. Thanks!!

    Nakai Yozaburo was a long-time illegal resident of Ulleungdo and we can see that even he was well aware that Dokdo was not part of Japan but instead thought it was attached to Ulleungdo thus Chosun territory. Whatever Nakai thought, it is proof positive that Dokdo was not part of Japan prior to the illegal Shimane Prefecture annexation of Dokdo.

    nakai yozaburo’s territorial perceptions of the region can be seen as an accurate impression of those who lived on Ulleungdo and knew the region intimately. Although he was an illegal squatter he thought as others locals did that Dokdo was Korean territory not by just looking at one map.

    You are wrong on another point. Nakai received guidance from the Japanese Navy’s Hydrographic Department on incorporating Dokdo all along. I‘ve already given you the quote from the Japanese Official who stated the motives for Japan’s annexation of Dokdo this was well before the annexation of Dokdo back in September of 1904.

  46. comment number 46 by: ponta

    Nakai’s diary.

    “As I thought that the island was Korean territory attached to Ullungdo, I went to the capital trying to submit a request to the Residency-General. But, as suggested by Fishery Bureau Director Maki Bokushin, I came to question Korea’s ownership of Takeshima. And at the end of my investigation with the matter,
    I convinced myself that this island was absolutely ownerless through the conclusion by the then Hydrographic Director Admiral Kimotsuki. Accordingly, I submitted an application through the Home Ministry to the three Ministers of Home Ministry , Foreign Ministry and Agriculture. Commerce Ministry for incorporation of this island into Japanese territory and for its lease tome.

    ttp://www.dokdo-takeshima.com/dokdo-nakai.html
    Dokdotakeshima com/Steve Barber=Toadface’s site.

  47. comment number 47 by: toadface

    Thanks Ponta.

    As I mentioned Nakai Yozaburo was guided by the Japanese Admiral that dokdo was ownerless and then they forced through the annexation.

    In other words, the military (Navy) was the driving force behind Japan’s annexation of dokdo.

  48. comment number 48 by: ponta

    Toadface
    Thanks
    Whehter your speculation about the driving force is right or not, it is a fact that Nakai came to question Korea’s ownership of Takeshima. And at the end of his investigation with the matter, he I convinced himself that this island was absolutely ownerless, isn’t it?
    If so, I think it is misleading to ignore this part.
    And Nakai was not a soldier, he was a fisherman, his motivation to ask the government to make it clear that it is Japanese islet was not military, but economic, wasn’t it? If so, I think it is misleading to ignore it, though it might be true there was an aspect Japanese government had a militaristic use of Dokdo in mind.

  49. comment number 49 by: pacifist

    toadface,

    Pacifist, you’ve just proven you are talking out of your hat.

    First you say that Dokdo was part of Japan from the Edo era and now you give clear evidence the Japanese government didn’t consider it part of Japan at all just months before they annexed it. Thanks!!

    .
    The followings are evidences you admitted (or you couldn’t refute):
    .
    1) Japan recognised Ulleungdo (and Takeshima/Dokdo) as her territory in the Edo period.
    2) After the Shogunate banned to go to Ulleungdo, Takeshima/Dokdo remained in Japanese territory.
    .

    After the dispute between Chosun and the Shogunate, a few fishermen went to Takeshima/Dokdo, many Japanese people half-forgot about the island. (But during these era there was no traces of Koreans at all.)
    .
    In the Meiji era, the Shogunate disappeared and new Meiji government had no information about the island. And there were confusion about the islands because of western maps.
    .
    So Meiji government had to re-confirm and to make it sure that the island belongs to Japan.
    .
    .
    So toadface, there is no inconsistency.
    Japan knew and owned it in the Edo period and made it sure that it belonged to Japan after a half-forgotten period.
    .
    On the other hand, all through its history, Korea never knew it, never owned it. So Korea has no right to own it.
    .
    However, she occupied it illegally, and educated their people that the stealing was right. What a shame!
    And toadface, you are helping the theft…but you never feel a guilty feeling (pee on toad’s face!)…